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Stryklone

Stryklone

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PostSubject: Re: Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community   Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 2:59 pm

Ty-Odi wrote:
... I have seen so many people on threads on the main forum quoting 'Progression or developement of their character' as being all important. ...

Just be aware that for better or worse the TOR devs are the ones those people are quoting.

Quote :
... None of them really offer much in the way of gear progression, and I use these two games, mostly because they are the PVP mega games in some respects, and if they can be so incredibly popular and long lasting without the need for a vet to be so overwhelmingly out gearing then why on earth can an MMORPG not be the same? ...

A PvP game gets variety by changing the opponents. A PvE game gets variety by changing the player character.

Quote :
... Gear does not need to be the 'Be all and end all' of an MMO, and the sooner game developers realise this, the better the games will be from my persepective, and the more fun MMO's will become. ...

Progression doesn't have to be mainly gear, but some form of progression over time is what makes the MMO an ongoing form of entertainment. I've just started playing Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy again. The results this time won't be different from the last! However, it's been several years since last played so it is fresh and new. The MMO doesn't want me to drop their game for 7 years before trying it again.

What MMO developer wouldn't be perfectly ecstatic releasing the game once, never touching it again and just raking in the cash every month for the rest of their lives? The only stumbling block in that master plan, the block that forces devs to make expansions with new beasties to fight and new places to see: the players. They demanded and caused progression to be put in ongoing games, not the developers.

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azarhal

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PostSubject: Re: Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community   Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 5:01 pm

Stryklone wrote:
Ty-Odi wrote:
... I have seen so many people on threads on the main forum quoting 'Progression or developement of their character' as being all important. ...

Just be aware that for better or worse the TOR devs are the ones those people are quoting.

Sometimes they do twists quote to suit their purpose. Most of them were sure that "progression or development" meant that endgame was going to be raid gear focused...and now we know that crafter can make the best stuff on a server.


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Godric_Barbarosa

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PostSubject: Re: Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community   Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 6:37 pm

First let me say I like UI mods. I like being able to set up my screen exactly how I want it. And love macros, being able to combine two or more buttons into one reduces the clutter on my screen.

However, I don't like other mods. The damage meter was the death of cooperative game play. Suddenly it wasn't about doing a clean run of a dungeon with no-one dying. Suddenly it was about whose name was at the top of the damage meter.

Someone mentioned a threat meter. To me this removes some of the uncertainty and tension of gameplay. It make the game to easy. I wonder how many people on the swtor boards that complain about other games and this one as being too easy. Of course they are going to be to easy if you use these kinds of cheats. The game is designed for players who aren't using them.

Gear...oh...I've written disertations on my opinions on gear in the swtor forums. I'll try to be brief. I hate it. I'd be fine wearing the same gear the entire time.

Gear progression and looting is another reason for the cause in the decline of civility that has become the impetuous for this group. Because I have better gear than you, I can beat you in PvP and that makes me feel superior to you even if all else being equal I'm not. Gear is the reason why I'm rolling "need" on everything in this dungeon even if I don't truly need it.

Statted gear is just a hundred times worse. You remember that part where Han Solo and Chewbacca have just killed that stormtrooper. Han's like "Hey, Chewie grab that Blaster with +2 to presence off of him"....Yeah we could find that either. I'm not an heavy RP nerd but I don't see how a lightsaber is going to make you smarter.
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Coldhart

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PostSubject: Re: Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community   Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 9:55 pm

Well, as I stated earlier, mods don't give any abbilities to make a person a better player...meaning there are no mods that give you a new attack or a new ability. Almost all mods are cosmetic or informative mods. You either like em or you don't. I play with people who use em and I play with people who don't use em...each to their own. But one thing that I absolutely cannot stand is people critisizing others for using them. Like me for example...you don't pay my monthly fees for the game so what gives you the right to say how I should or shouldn't play?

If ther are mods for TOR, I may use some. If there won't be any then I'll still be just as happy playing the game.
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Xaxus

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PostSubject: Re: Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community   Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 10:07 pm

azarhal wrote:
Darka wrote:
Other then hating it, do you feel it has had an effect?

an effect? as bad for the community?

Good question.

I think that Gearscore does. It's a tool used to create castes. Rejecting certain people simply because they don't fit the metric. It cause rejection, exclusion and piss off nice people when they realize they were used by a soon-to-be Gearscore addict so he can reach that "caste" level. But Gearscore exist only because the game focus on gear level to complete content and it is used that way because people are selfish and greedy...

Although, while I hate them. I don't mind if people use them and I have no problem with UI mods that simply re-arrange, re-skin or simplify access to already available information.
Gear score just needs to be handled polite and proper. A good understanding that hey, we need you to get geared before you can go. What I hated about WoW players was, they would leave ppl behind, and be sneaky about things. Everyone in a guild that likes same content, that wants to go, I always wanted to help. Mods is ok, if ppl use them for a group thing, not to label ppl out thing. Some ppl with means of braging rights, seems to disrespect ppl over thier own game. I care can less though about gear score and dps meter. If we have a vent set up, things will go ok. If we die, no big deal.. Laughing
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Godric_Barbarosa

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PostSubject: Re: Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community   Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 10:18 pm

Coldhart wrote:
Well, as I stated earlier, mods don't give any abbilities to make a person a better player...meaning there are no mods that give you a new attack or a new ability. Almost all mods are cosmetic or informative mods. You either like em or you don't. I play with people who use em and I play with people who don't use em...each to their own. But one thing that I absolutely cannot stand is people critisizing others for using them. Like me for example...you don't pay my monthly fees for the game so what gives you the right to say how I should or shouldn't play?

If ther are mods for TOR, I may use some. If there won't be any then I'll still be just as happy playing the game.

I didn't mean to tell people how they should play but information can be even better than a new ability. The threat meter for example. If I'm dps and I know my next attack will pull aggro than I won't do it. I just think having that kind of information ahead of time is powerful and removes the tension that makes the game fun. I just don't like the people who use such a mod and than say the game is too easy. Of course it's too easy you just removed the thing that made it harder.


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Aldemarran

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PostSubject: Re: Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community   Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 22, 2010 12:24 am

Stryklone wrote:
...
What MMO developer wouldn't be perfectly ecstatic releasing the game once, never touching it again and just raking in the cash every month for the rest of their lives? The only stumbling block in that master plan, the block that forces devs to make expansions with new beasties to fight and new places to see: the players. They demanded and caused progression to be put in ongoing games, not the developers.
...

Thank you for articulating this. This is often over-looked by those who view the game from the social perspective. It is easy to say "I wouldn't care if we only ran anything but Kharazhan, because I play it for the friends." But the reality is that you can go to the same party every day of the year to hang out with friends, but you'll get bored. The party has to change.

Be it gear, levels, skill points, or otherwise I have yet to see an active method of content addition that didn't exclude new players. I keep hoping someone will find a way to make a game where a player of 3 years can take a player of 3 days with them on any mission/quest/scenario and have them fully participate, yet still have something new for the 3 year player to be working towards and looking forward to. And when that game comes, I'll be the first to sign up. (Or maybe the 1 million and 1st because there are a lot of people out there who want this too, but you get my point.)

Until that game comes I'm just going to have to try to help people build up and keep up as best I can. And I'll use the tools at my disposal to help them understand and improve their characters and save them some of the learning curve that I went through (and thoroughly enjoyed, engineer that I am).

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Ty-Odi
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PostSubject: Re: Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community   Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 22, 2010 12:34 am

Aldemarran wrote:
Stryklone wrote:
...
What MMO developer wouldn't be perfectly ecstatic releasing the game once, never touching it again and just raking in the cash every month for the rest of their lives? The only stumbling block in that master plan, the block that forces devs to make expansions with new beasties to fight and new places to see: the players. They demanded and caused progression to be put in ongoing games, not the developers.
...

Thank you for articulating this. This is often over-looked by those who view the game from the social perspective. It is easy to say "I wouldn't care if we only ran anything but Kharazhan, because I play it for the friends." But the reality is that you can go to the same party every day of the year to hang out with friends, but you'll get bored. The party has to change.

Be it gear, levels, skill points, or otherwise I have yet to see an active method of content addition that didn't exclude new players. I keep hoping someone will find a way to make a game where a player of 3 years can take a player of 3 days with them on any mission/quest/scenario and have them fully participate, yet still have something new for the 3 year player to be working towards and looking forward to. And when that game comes, I'll be the first to sign up. (Or maybe the 1 million and 1st because there are a lot of people out there who want this too, but you get my point.)

Until that game comes I'm just going to have to try to help people build up and keep up as best I can. And I'll use the tools at my disposal to help them understand and improve their characters and save them some of the learning curve that I went through (and thoroughly enjoyed, engineer that I am).

I know a few that did, SWG Pre-CU was a case in point.

Looted gear did not matter at all. It was all crafted. What you went to an end boss or top end critter for was rare drop components to make things, those could then be turned into something sweet by a crafter.

It is different things, but loot does not have to be the only pursuit.

Seriously if this game started with gear not being that big a deal, but instead of an UBERPAWNEROFNEWBS weapon a schematic dropped for a weapon which just looked amazing, it would still have the same appeal as long as it is rare.

I have seen people in games spend insane credits not on a weapon or a set of armour, but believe or not, something which was once a junk loot drop, but because no one kept it, and after a couple of years they were removed from the loot table, they became so rare in game, as to be worth insane amounts. People only wanted one, because it was rare.

People who play MMO's for their rares, are people who like to show off their new shiny, stats on those if they only gave +1 to something that was not their before, but was better than anything else out there, would still be as desirable as something which offered +50 to everything.

It depends on how the game sets itself out from the off. If it is a gear centric game such as WoW, then all that will matter is gear, if they go another way, or they make gearing up barely noticeable it will go another. Content, combat, story, community, those are the things which keep people playing not a stat increase.

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Stryklone

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PostSubject: Re: Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community   Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 22, 2010 12:47 am

Coldhart wrote:
. Like me for example...you don't pay my monthly fees for the game so what gives you the right to say how I should or shouldn't play?

It's the same right you have to change my gameplay. Use of GS forces the devs to rebalance the game. That affects my game whether I use GS or not.
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Stryklone

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PostSubject: Re: Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community   Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 22, 2010 1:04 am

Ty-Odi wrote:
I know a few that did, SWG Pre-CU was a case in point.

Looted gear did not matter at all. It was all crafted. What you went to an end boss or top end critter for was rare drop components to make things, those could then be turned into something sweet by a crafter.

It is different things, but loot does not have to be the only pursuit.

I was quite happy in SWG as a crafter and musician, and also glad I could progress in those skills.

Quote :

Content, combat, story, community, those are the things which keep people playing not a stat increase.

Each one of those, including stat increase, has its own crusaders. I wish them all well.
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Ty-Odi
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PostSubject: Re: Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community   Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 22, 2010 1:09 am

Its not that I mind stat increases in MMO's far from it, but its the WoW type increases that bother me.

When it gets to a point that every 6 months you are affectively starting from scratch again, and every 6 months you just put anyone new to the game a further set of gear behind everyone else.

Stat increases are one thing, game altering ones though are just too much. They are just not needed in my eyes, and are in fact counter productive in so many ways.

It ruins PVP.

Raids become a job not an enjoyable experience.

Game time is no longer fun its a repeat and rinse grind.....

Just personal I guess, but I honestly hate the gear treadmill that is MMOs now since WoW......

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PostSubject: Re: Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community   Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 22, 2010 1:10 am

Stryklone wrote:
What MMO developer wouldn't be perfectly ecstatic releasing the game once, never touching it again and just raking in the cash every month for the rest of their lives? The only stumbling block in that master plan, the block that forces devs to make expansions with new beasties to fight and new places to see: the players. They demanded and caused progression to be put in ongoing games, not the developers.

An excellent observation, Stryklone. The endless treadmill created by this player driven content loop gives ground for BioWare's reroll methodology. This is similar to that of City of Heroes, the difference being that CoH offered a new gameplay experience with each playthrough based on your new toon's power choices. SWTOR looks to not just duplicate that with each AC offering a new way to play the game, but an entirely new story progression as well. So, if SWTOR has more focus on "the ride" rather than the "finish line," will gear really matter as much?
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Stryklone

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PostSubject: Re: Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community   Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 22, 2010 1:24 pm

Ty-Odi wrote:
... Stat increases are one thing, game altering ones though are just too much. They are just not needed in my eyes, and are in fact counter productive in so many ways.

It ruins PVP.

Raids become a job not an enjoyable experience.

Game time is no longer fun its a repeat and rinse grind.....

The big two reasons why raiding hasn't been for me are the repetition and the gear obsession. I haven't done PvP in many years because of the rudeness. Still, just because those aren't my favs I see enough people wanting to do them that I hope TOR does them well.

That's also why BioWare's inexperience with MMOs is a plus in my eyes. BioWare sat back and watched closely how other companies did it for a few years. That's a great way to learn pros and cons. Oops, better stop that thinking -- it almost became an expectation and I know better.
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Coldhart

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PostSubject: Re: Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community   Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 22, 2010 11:18 pm

Hey gang, don't get me wrong...not angry with anyone here...was just making a point "in general". Truth of the matter is there are people who like using mods and there are people who don't like using mods. Noone here or in-game on any server has the right to tell anyone else you should or shouldn't use mods. Just because I like them doesn't mean that I don't like you cuz you won't use em.

And mods make the devs reballance the servers? C'mon, really? Maybe as a small portion. There's a ton of other things that also cause that not just using mods.
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Ty-Odi
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PostSubject: Re: Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community   Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 23, 2010 12:38 am

Coldhart wrote:
Hey gang, don't get me wrong...not angry with anyone here...was just making a point "in general". Truth of the matter is there are people who like using mods and there are people who don't like using mods. Noone here or in-game on any server has the right to tell anyone else you should or shouldn't use mods. Just because I like them doesn't mean that I don't like you cuz you won't use em.

And mods make the devs reballance the servers? C'mon, really? Maybe as a small portion. There's a ton of other things that also cause that not just using mods.

I don't think people are against Mods full stop per say mate.

The problem is, their are Mods, and then their are Mods.

Some simply help you play a game, others are so assisting as to take away any need of skill or thought process from the player, others CAN be game breaking.

One example I will give, was a Mod in SWG, this enabled you to swap saber colour crytals which did different DOT damages for all 6 colour types in the same second, meaning any Jedi using these Mods was fire, acid, poison, cold etc DOT'ing an enemy every single second with every attack.

You could be hit and dead in less than a few strikes if that. It ruined PVP, enabled those using this Mod to run riot through RAIDS and mobs etc.

Yes it was shut down by the devs pretty quickly, but that is just one example, they kept coming, and are still there to my knowledge.

Mods are great if they are a simple player assist, to enable you to equip a weapon easily, or to change a set of clothing or something, these kind of Mods are simply time saving features, others however are exploits.

I have seen people auto level/gold farm, using BOTS, MACROs and Mods.

Whether you use them yourself or not is up to you, and your right no one can stop you, nor would I even try unless a Mod you were using was game breaking or exploiting.

I think my biggest gripe with them, is they tend to dumb down a game. It begins to take away some of the need from the player to think for themselves, to use their own knowledge and reflexes.

Winning is important, but winning when it is more to do with the Mod your using only cheapens the victory for me. I think thats it for me, its not the Mods, its the level of Mod, and how far it goes to give you an unfair advantage for using it really.

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PostSubject: Re: Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community   Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 23, 2010 1:19 am

The only mods I ever used was a threat meter and dps meter. The threat meter was stricty for raids. Drawing threat in a 5 or 10 man isn't all that be of a deal but drawing threat in a full-on raid could mean a full wipe which is discourteous at best and inept at worst. I used the dps meter just to increase the efficacy of my character's role to help the group as a whole. I never had any use for the other type of mods.
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Stryklone

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PostSubject: Re: Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community   Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 23, 2010 3:08 am

Coldhart wrote:
Hey gang, don't get me wrong...not angry with anyone here...was just making a point "in general".

I'm not angry with you. Only two things get me angry. The first is rudeness. If anyone interrup--
The second is violence. If I ever hear anyone even mention violence around me, I'm going to punch them through that wall!
Now, I can also get riled up about people who are ignorant and apathetic ... but I don't know who they are and don't care. Very Happy

However, I do disagree with some of your statements and surely the feeling is mutual. That's fine. We both are perfectly free to disagree and discuss those. My sigs are always lighthearted to try to point out discussion is against points, never against the person. Guess the sig might not be enough so from this point forward expect to be deluged with Emoticons.

Quote :
Truth of the matter is there are people who like using mods and there are people who don't like using mods. Noone here or in-game on any server has the right to tell anyone else you should or shouldn't use mods.
And yet in another thread you want to run to other people and guilds and coerce them into lowering their AH price. confused Until seeing that it seemed we had the same belief, just disagreeing on whether or not use of mods fit the test. The belief I'd thought we both shared was one person's right to do what he wishes ends when it interferes with another's right to do what he wishes. Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community - Page 2 841825

"Is that night sky in the game black or a very dark blue?" Why are there no arguments for/against that? Because it has absolutely no effect on gameplay.

Why do people argue for/against mods? Because they do have an effect on gameplay. Sad

This isn't whining because of some theoretical possibility. People aren't ranting about a future proposed untested game system here, although that happens often enough on the Internet! Laughing GS exists, it is for real, and has been out long enough for people to experience the real change it imposes from how non-users used to be able to play the game.

Start a thread about you seeing the night sky as dark blue. I'm certain I won't argue about it, and will guess Ty-Odi won't either. More power to your own ocular orb observations! What a Face That doesn't affect our own gameplay.

Now close your eyes, toss a rock toward any group of WoW players. That yelp of pain was from someone who was shut out of part of the game because of Gear Score.

I assure you, I'd perfectly happy to let you do your own thing with a UI mod. I don't argue against others PvPing. I don't argue against others RPing. I don't argue against raids.

Any and all objections to mods I have seen are always based on one point: Many change the game (after all, that is the reason mods exist), even for people who refuse to use them. If you've seen other objections, your mentioning/showing them would be appreciated. Inquiring minds want to know.

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Just because I like them doesn't mean that I don't like you cuz you won't use em.
I'd hug you flower but then to keep our membership as Guys we'd have to immediately step back and start talking about sports. cheers

Quote :
And mods make the devs reballance the servers? C'mon, really? Maybe as a small portion. There's a ton of other things that also cause that not just using mods.
Yes. Really. On the other point I have to admit "Hey, since a problem exists from other sources we can add to it" strikes me as odd reasoning, but to each his own. Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community - Page 2 780832

Have a great rest of the week, I won't have much forum time for a while.



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Coldhart

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PostSubject: Re: Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community   Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 23, 2010 6:15 am

Quote :
And yet in another thread you want to run to other people and guilds and coerce them into lowering their AH price. Until seeing that it seemed we had the same belief, just disagreeing on whether or not use of mods fit the test. The belief I'd thought we both shared was one person's right to do what he wishes ends when it interferes with another's right to do what he wishes.

I also stated a few posts after that that I went overboard discussing a problem that erked me.

Quote :
Quote:
And mods make the devs reballance the servers? C'mon, really? Maybe as a small portion. There's a ton of other things that also cause that not just using mods.

Yes. Really. On the other point I have to admit "Hey, since a problem exists from other sources we can add to it" strikes me as odd reasoning, but to each his own.

Every game, even games that do not allow mods have reballanceing. They rebalance classes, instances, bosses, regular mobs. It's far from the truth that mods even make up a large percent of reballancing issues. Ask our guildie Q. He was in programing all his life if you want further testimony. I'm not saying that mods don't contribute to the need for reballancing. They do to a degree...a small degree. Most reballancing is down scaling, not upscaling. So if our mods were making it easier, wouldn't they be making it harder, not easier?

Most blue posts you read from devs discuss how things that they programmed in were not working as intended...I.E. a certain class ability is too weak or too strong...the hunter's tier 3 set bonuses were too high and needed to be adjusted. The downscaling from instance bosses is because they are too hard in the first place. After everyone complains enough, they downscale the damage and maybe take certain things out.

TBH I've never once heard of informative and cosmetic mods blaimed for any changes in a game.

Note I say informative and cosmetic...those are the only mods I'm refering to. I would never use bots or any exploitive mods to begin with.


Last edited by Coldhart on Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:39 am; edited 1 time in total
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HDubNZ

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PostSubject: Re: Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community   Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 23, 2010 6:36 am

The most destructive mod I have seen in WoW recently was Gear Score. After the slog of hitting max level and being ready to start high level instances and then introductory raiding this came along and gods help you if you weren't up to a certain score.

That replaced the minimum dps requirement.

NOW it is Gear Score + Min DPS....sigh...I wonder why I can't be bothered raiding?

Oh that and I'm rubbish...
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Coldhart

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PostSubject: Re: Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community   Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 23, 2010 7:23 am

But like I posted earlier...it's not the gear score mod causing the problem...it's the people missusing it and being asses to other people.

When used properly, raid leaders can adjust certain strategies to make certain areas or fights go better just from knowing this info.

Just like figuring who will be on what vehicle in (c'mon...anyone know? What boss? lmao)...the higher the score usually meant you're in a tank or dps catapult. Or if you're ranged dps with a higher score, guess what...you're gettin tossed ...onto the boss that is lol
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Aldemarran

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PostSubject: Re: Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community   Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 23, 2010 12:33 pm

Ty-Odi wrote:
...
I know a few that did, SWG Pre-CU was a case in point.

Looted gear did not matter at all. It was all crafted. What you went to an end boss or top end critter for was rare drop components to make things, those could then be turned into something sweet by a crafter.

It is different things, but loot does not have to be the only pursuit.

Seriously if this game started with gear not being that big a deal, but instead of an UBERPAWNEROFNEWBS weapon a schematic dropped for a weapon which just looked amazing, it would still have the same appeal as long as it is rare.

I have seen people in games spend insane credits not on a weapon or a set of armour, but believe or not, something which was once a junk loot drop, but because no one kept it, and after a couple of years they were removed from the loot table, they became so rare in game, as to be worth insane amounts. People only wanted one, because it was rare.

People who play MMO's for their rares, are people who like to show off their new shiny, stats on those if they only gave +1 to something that was not their before, but was better than anything else out there, would still be as desirable as something which offered +50 to everything.

It depends on how the game sets itself out from the off. If it is a gear centric game such as WoW, then all that will matter is gear, if they go another way, or they make gearing up barely noticeable it will go another. Content, combat, story, community, those are the things which keep people playing not a stat increase.

Ok, bear with me for just a moment here. Strictly speaking, anything that you have because you worked for it and I can't have because I didn't work for it is a form of "Elitism", especially if put on display for all to see your difference from me. From this I would guess (and this is your opinion I'm talking about here, so slap me upside the head if I've misunderstood you!) that what concerns you is exclusion of players from participating in activities. Your problem then would NOT seem to be the ability to work on and "improve" (even purely in terms of vanity or other non-combat/profession ways) your character.

On to my general theory now. How then does this relate to Mods & Apps? I was around for the "Stormstrike Macro" and after they fixed it Enchancement Shaman (yes, I spelled that correctly... Laughing ) went from gods to paupers in PvP (balanced around the macro maybe?). I totally agree that anything which directly increases your character's combat ability should be locked out. I also believe that anything which provides information about your character, including their combat effectiveness, is a helpful tool.

I doubt anyone would argue that I should give a Level 70 the opportunity to prove that they can do 3k DPS in a level 80 raid before refusing them a slot. Yet people with sub-2k WH gearscore want the opportunity to see if they can perform at the minimum 3k DPS needed to down the boss? Either way I'm using the same principle of looking at your potential DPS to determine if I can use you in the raid I'm putting together. Back before gearscore I had to manually inspect player's gear and do an estimate in my head of their average item level to guess if they even had a chance at completing the raid. Or on Shade of Aran I had to look at their max HP to see if they could survive his AOE Pyroblast. CONVERSELY I would drag those in better gear back to "lower" dungeons to help gear those who were not prepared for the "higher" dungeons.

Generalizing even further, we are trying to create a community of people who use general chat and such appropriately. We've even got a suggestion to create global channels to substitute for those channels over-run by >expletive deleted<. Is it not logical to expect that another part of being in this community would be the appropriate use of Mods & Apps?

TL;DR
I agree that I would like the game to be accessible to all. If the game is not designed that way from the get-go, I hope that this community will use the available Mods & Apps appropriately. I also hope that the community does not throw the baby out with the bath water on Mods & Apps.

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Ty-Odi
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PostSubject: Re: Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community   Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 23, 2010 12:58 pm

Aldemarran wrote:
Ok, bear with me for just a moment here. Strictly speaking, anything that you have because you worked for it and I can't have because I didn't work for it is a form of "Elitism", especially if put on display for all to see your difference from me. From this I would guess (and this is your opinion I'm talking about here, so slap me upside the head if I've misunderstood you!) that what concerns you is exclusion of players from participating in activities. Your problem then would NOT seem to be the ability to work on and "improve" (even purely in terms of vanity or other non-combat/profession ways) your character.

You sort of have it, but at the same time you don't let me explain.

You seem to only see improving you character in terms of stat increases, this is fine in some regards, however, as I have mentioned in other replies their are Stat Increases, and then their are Stat increases.

If you seek to improve your player, does it have to be to such a huge degree that it utterly alienates other players who are also Max level, but simply don't have the same game time as you to run 3 or 4 hour long Raids night after night, week after week?

Why does each gear set, have to basically full blown nullify he previous one? Why can it not simply be a slight upgrade to the previous?

If gear in this game offered only small stat increases to new gear, it would still be as desirable as game breaking leaps in stats. It would also enable someone who is newer to compete and take part. At least skill would stand a chance of overcoming stats



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Stryklone

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PostSubject: Re: Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community   Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 23, 2010 3:00 pm

Coldhart wrote:

I also stated a few posts after that that I went overboard discussing a problem that erked me.
So then the disagreement does boil down to whether or not one person's use of mods can affect someone who doesn't use them.

If you don't think Gear Score affects those who don't use it, all we can do is wish each other well. (And still do that no matter what!) If you do agree that GS does affect the non-users, my position is a step in the wrong direction is a step in the wrong direction. Your position seems to be about the size of the step.

I apologize if I gave the impression that mods were sole reasons or the overwhelming one to cause a rebalance. I never thought or said that. They are only one factor out of many.

Developers have learned no one wants a nerf. Few people complain when something is added to their class. When one class is too strong the solution is often to boost other classes instead of taking away from the first one.

We both know about the rise of metrics to measure everything a gamer does. If more groups finish a raid quicker or easier than the devs want, the devs will change the difficulty or change what they want. It would seem with WoW - just guessing on my part - the devs changed what the devs want.

Quote :
TBH I've never once heard of informative and cosmetic mods blaimed for any changes in a game.
I'm sorry if I haven't been clear. I'm talking about Game Score and that type. No one has any problem with a cosmetic mod. We disagree on two issues with Gear Score. First, you place it solely in the informative category; I view it as larger and spilling over into explotive. Second, I place it as causing elitism in the game by punishing the have-nots. Beyond that there is how it affects the quallty and enjoyment of the game, but that is very subjective.

To stop this from turning into a redux of the TOR forums "Daniel Erickson response about playable species" thread (about 4 people doing half of 3k+ posts!) I'll just agree to disagree with you on this issue. We'll both have fun with the UI mods in TOR, if there are any.
Let's see ... you've started threads on Mods ... on Microtransactions ... what's up next, partioning the Middle East? how to handle Global Warming? lol! Even if so, the great thing is being able to discuss here in civility.

There aren't many thread subjects which cause me to be late for my own vacation!
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Aldemarran

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PostSubject: Re: Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community   Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 24, 2010 2:09 am

Ty-Odi wrote:
...
Why does each gear set, have to basically full blown nullify he previous one? Why can it not simply be a slight upgrade to the previous?

If gear in this game offered only small stat increases to new gear, it would still be as desirable as game breaking leaps in stats. It would also enable someone who is newer to compete and take part. At least skill would stand a chance of overcoming stats
...

I actually agree with you here. Small improvements (1% per tier maybe) would make the game much more accessible. I would even like to see much of the progression effort being invested into players customizing their appearance. The ability to choose color / shape / pattern / etc would be awesome, and add much to the customization aspect, IMHO.

I'll be honest, what I saw on Darth Hater looked like SW:TOR is going to follow the WoW model for tool tips, which implies a similar gearing premise. But hope springs eternal...

Closing the loop back to the thread title, if we get a more accessible system, wonderful! Such being the case I would expect those mods & apps that people seem to find offensive and/or use offensively would be irrelevant. But if we get a WoWish system, I'll use what's available to try and maximize efficiency and accessibility for the people I play with but not to decide whom I play with. (Unfortunately I can't take responsibility for helping the whole player-base get gear Neutral )

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PostSubject: Re: Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community   Mods/Apps And Gear : Their Effect on the Community - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 24, 2010 2:48 am

Stryklone wrote:
...

If you don't think Gear Score affects those who don't use it, all we can do is wish each other well. (And still do that no matter what!) If you do agree that GS does affect the non-users, my position is a step in the wrong direction is a step in the wrong direction. Your position seems to be about the size of the step.

...

Developers have learned no one wants a nerf. Few people complain when something is added to their class. When one class is too strong the solution is often to boost other classes instead of taking away from the first one.

We both know about the rise of metrics to measure everything a gamer does. If more groups finish a raid quicker or easier than the devs want, the devs will change the difficulty or change what they want. It would seem with WoW - just guessing on my part - the devs changed what the devs want.

...

Second part first, because it is the easiest. The Devs are running tools in the background that even the most elitist player will never have access to. They use this raw data to balance the game as they see fit. They will have this data and balance the way they do irregardless of what numbers the players gather. The only impact players have on the game is our ability to figure out what the Devs already know. If the Devs have some way of playing a class in a balanced manner, but only 1% of that class's population can figure out how to do it, then the Devs adjust the gameplay to be easier to figure out. We don't see the nerf to that top 1%, what we see is the buff to the next 30% who suddenly find the class competitive. This trade off will go on, the only thing the mods do is narrow the span of players. And that's something you may or may not like, but it makes the game more popular if more people can figure out how to play the class.

As to the first part...
I guess I would ask what you think the causality is here? Does the gearscore cause the problem, or does the problem cause gearscore to be an issue? Allow me to refine this thought for a moment.

Many, many players play games for the ego trip. Most of your trolls don't particularly care to cause harm (and thereby minimize their in-game opportunities), they care to cause you to react against your will. Since causing you to enjoy yourself is something you want, they cause harm to prove they have power over you. This gives them the sense of empowerment they crave.

Gearscore is one highly visible means they use to prove their superiority over others. By finding a method of excluding many people from their 'club' they prove to themselves that they can deny you something you want. This gives them that empowerment they desire. If you take this mod away, they will simply use something else (probably even more draconian) to beat you over the head with their superiority.

If your opinion is that gear should not determine what activities you can participate in, then I agree with you. But gearscore mods don't cause this, game mechanics controlled by Devs do.

If your opinion is that gearscore causes the superiority complex, we'll have to agree to disagree. In my opinion people use what they find; they are not used by what they find.

If your opinion is that game mechanics should drive people to behave in the way we like, we'll have to agree to disagree. I think we should look for a community of like minded individuals and let others go their own way. I believe that there are too many other ways their true personality will leak out. Their personalities will conflict irregardless of a perfect game mechanic.

Taking Ty-Odi's example game mechanic above; even if gear improvements were trivial, I think people would exclude others with the excuse "I don't owe you instruction in how to play the game. I've earned the right to blow through this instance with experienced players. Go work on your gear." Already in WoW most people who've seen me play on a new 80 and complained about my gearscore before the first pull end up saying something along the lines of "Your gearscore says newb but you play like a pro." (Yes, I've really had people say that to me.) In the end Reality has little to do with it. People are what they are, mods & apps are only one tool they can use to show you their true selves.

If your opinion is something else... well I haven't thought of / understood it yet and I will at very least learn something from reading it Very Happy

In any event, may we all have the best of luck finding communities we are happy in!!!

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