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Coldhart

Coldhart

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PostSubject: Re: Money...to buy or not to buy   Money...to buy or not to buy - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 5:46 pm

Nice. I have to say I am impressed with everyone's thoughts on the matter.

My main reason for starting this post is because of my past experiences in game. I know so many people in a lot of different games who state that they feel like they just can't get ahead in the games economy. Let me tell you all, you have very valid points. The gold sellers do drive up the economy and people do get hacked from time to time in the process. But here's another side of...

Stupid people drive up the economy more than anything and all it takes is a couple people to start it. You have Joe Blow over here trying to sell a level 20 chest piece for 1 gold (Outragious) but it's the only one on the auction house. Then Jimmy Jo Bob sees that and tries to sell his level 22 chest piece for 1.2 gold because there aren't any others up there and he thinks someone will be stupid enough to buy it. Before you know it, the prices on things keep rising and rising and before too long everything is out of hand. Then you have your average run of the mill player come in and see this and say to themselves "Crap, how can I afford to buy such things? I know. I'll buy some gold". Then starts the vicious cycle that leads us further and further down the spiral...more outragious prices...more people buying gold.

If you want to lay blame, put it where it belongs...the origianl people who started it.

That's one thing that I think can work for us. If we gain enough people/guilds, we can rule over our server and police our auction houses. It's one thing to make some money from the things you're selling, but c'mon don't be an asshat and try to rip people off. After all, this is what leads MOST people to buy gold so they feel they can compete with the already "out of control" economy.


That worked out well...see, I start talking about buying gold, get you guys posting and all wound up then turn it around and start talking about the truth of how it starts...Cold's Alterior Motives mwahahaha


Last edited by Coldhart on Sun Nov 21, 2010 6:09 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Ty-Odi
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Ty-Odi

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PostSubject: Re: Money...to buy or not to buy   Money...to buy or not to buy - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 6:00 pm

We as a group could set up our own auction house/trade forums on here.

I.e. hi guys, I have a 'Sith Holocron of awesomeness' I have it, so does all the guys in my guild who need it, so I am putting it to you guys to buy 1st.

Current AH value of item is around 1 million credits. I am looking for offers of 500k+ Auction closes as the end of tomorrow min increments 10k - happy bidding Smile

You might go up to the full asking price if it is rare even above, but thats down to those on here who bid for it.

Your not ripping anyone off if they bid over the odds for it, its their choice.

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Grome
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PostSubject: Re: Money...to buy or not to buy   Money...to buy or not to buy - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 6:05 pm

That's why sometimes I like to argue that too much freedom for the player isn't good.

It's very true that especially in WoW things got sometimes artificially pushed by players and it made absolutely no sense. I hope Bioware has come up with something to keep it at bay at least to some extent.

And yes, we could certainly do something about it as well... What exactly did you have in mind there Cold?

I very much like your idea there Ty!

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Godric_Barbarosa

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PostSubject: Re: Money...to buy or not to buy   Money...to buy or not to buy - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 6:07 pm

Kai-Sun wrote:
I'm sure any transaction they do have won't be anything but cosmetic changes, or something like a pet as seen from WoW, nothing game changing. You won't be buying items with real life money that normally take credits or time in game to farm, and have an actual use such as a potion.

I hope you are right Kai, but I'm not as confident as you are. I have heard how successful selling mounts at the item store was for WoW. I remember how hard I had to scrimp and save in WoW to get a mount before the economy inflation made crafting so lucrative. If I hadn't already left WoW, I would have rage quit and sent them a nasty letter when they did that.
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Godric_Barbarosa

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PostSubject: Re: Money...to buy or not to buy   Money...to buy or not to buy - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 6:14 pm

Coldhart wrote:
Nice. I have to say I am impressed with everyone's thoughts on the matter.

My main reason for starting this post is because of my past experiences in game. I know so many people in a lot of different games who state that they feel like they just can't get ahead in the games economy. Let me tell you all, you have very valid points. The gold sellers do drive up the economy and people do get hacked from time to time in the process. But here's another side of...

Stupid people drive up the economy more than anything and all it takes is a couple people to start it. You have Joe Blow over here trying to sell a level 20 chest piece for 1 gold (Outragious) but it's the only one on the auction house. Then Jimmy Jo Bob sees that and tries to sell his level 22 chest piece for 1.2 gold because there aren't any others up there and he thinks someone will be stupid enough to buy it. Before you know it, the prices on things keep rising and rising and before too long everything is out of hand. Then you have your average run of the mill player come in and see this and say to themselves "Crap, how can I afford to buy such things? I know. I'll buy some gold". Then starts the vicious cycle that leads us further and further down the spiral...more outragious prices...more people buying gold.

If you want to lay blame, put it where it belongs...the origianl people who started it.

That's one thing that I think can work for us. If we gain enough people/guilds, we can rule over our server and police our auction houses. It's one thing to make some money from the things you're selling, but c'mon don't be an asshat and try to rip people off. After all, this is what leads MOST people to buy gold so they feel they can compete with the already "out of control" economy.


That worked out well...see, I start talking about buying gold, get you guys posting and all wound up then turn it around and start talking about the truth of how it starts...Cold's Alterior Motives mwahahaha

I'm going to disagree with you, Cold. The blame still goes to the gold buyer. If someone who doesn't know any better puts up something up on the AH for a ridiculously high price. No one is going to buy it if they can't afford it. If I go I can't afford unless I buy gold and then buy the ridiculously priced item the blame still falls on me.

I don't tend to buy much while leveling because I always feel like it's a poor investment because I'm going to be replacing it soon anyway. I'd much rather make it myself, get it through questing, or pay a guildie to make it. But as I've said before, I'm cheap.
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Coldhart

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PostSubject: Re: Money...to buy or not to buy   Money...to buy or not to buy - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 6:18 pm

Well, I think Ty has a good plan to start. We can always come on here and post it up. We can have a thread made just for auctions. But that doesn't help our in-game auction houses/auction terminals. I think that if we see people trying to sell for outragious prices, we take it to them or their guild and say "hey, what the hell?" And get them all on the same page and reduce the price. Remember, there's power in numbers and if we make up the majority of the server then we shouldn't have a problem with that. I don't think we would all need to call a meeting to order for it or anything like that. But if you see something outragious on the auction house, send the seller a tell and say "ya know, you're being pretty rediculous on your asking price". If they say ya know I guess I am, then great. If they say so what some dumbass will buy it, then find out what guild their with and if we know the guild, contact one of their officers. It might be a pain to go through from time to time. But if you all truely want a great economy, these are some of the trials we have to endure.
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azarhal

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PostSubject: Re: Money...to buy or not to buy   Money...to buy or not to buy - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 6:19 pm

This forum having it own "AH" could be good, but it depends how the Bazaar work in TOR maybe it will actually be "attractive" to use and limit abuse.

I think one of the real problem of AH is that they have poor information, search mechanics and are only based on people offering something. That's why I would prefer a system where you can put orders with a price tag (demand) and a place where you can sell stuff (offer) would be much better.

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Ty-Odi
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PostSubject: Re: Money...to buy or not to buy   Money...to buy or not to buy - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 6:21 pm

Coldhart,

Though that would be amazing, you cannot stop people from doing it. The best way to defeat them, is simply to undercut them.

If they put an item up for 1 million, we put 10 up for half that.

Soon put them out of business.

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Ty-Odi
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PostSubject: Re: Money...to buy or not to buy   Money...to buy or not to buy - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 6:23 pm

azarhal wrote:
This forum having it own "AH" could be good, but it depends how the Bazaar work in TOR maybe it will actually be "attractive" to use and limit abuse.

I think one of the real problem of AH is that they have poor information, search mechanics and are only based on people offering something. That's why I would prefer a system where you can put orders with a price tag (demand) and a place where you can sell stuff (offer) would be much better.

Again a trade forum on here could cover that.

For example you need some duriliam steel.

On the Trade forum you put. Offering contract 50 credits per unit for durilliam steel.

Some one may have it and sell it too you, even if the going rate is normally more than that.

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Coldhart

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PostSubject: Re: Money...to buy or not to buy   Money...to buy or not to buy - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 6:24 pm

Quote :
I'm going to disagree with you, Cold. The blame still goes to the gold buyer. If someone who doesn't know any better puts up something up on the AH for a ridiculously high price. No one is going to buy it if they can't afford it. If I go I can't afford unless I buy gold and then buy the ridiculously priced item the blame still falls on me.

But that's the whole point. There are people who say "oh, I want that...but I don't have the money. Well I just go buy some". So if we put a stop to high prices, case closed.

And I do agree about buying stuff as you level. But what most people look at is mats for crafting. But this may be eliminated anyway with TOR's companion system.

Quote :
I think one of the real problem of AH is that they have poor information, search mechanics and are only based on people offering something. That's why I would prefer a system where you can put orders with a price tag (demand) and a place where you can sell stuff (offer) would be much better.

We may not be able to have vendors in TOR. If our ship is basicaly our home and base of operations, then how would people get to our vendor?




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Coldhart

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PostSubject: Re: Money...to buy or not to buy   Money...to buy or not to buy - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 6:27 pm

Quote :
Again a trade forum on here could cover that.

For example you need some duriliam steel.

On the Trade forum you put. Offering contract 50 credits per unit for durilliam steel.

Some one may have it and sell it too you, even if the going rate is normally more than that.

The only problem I see with that is that it will only help people who are registered here with R.I.G. It won't do anything for all the others on the server who might start paying outragious prices

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Ty-Odi
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PostSubject: Re: Money...to buy or not to buy   Money...to buy or not to buy - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 6:42 pm

Coldhart wrote:
Quote :
Again a trade forum on here could cover that.

For example you need some duriliam steel.

On the Trade forum you put. Offering contract 50 credits per unit for durilliam steel.

Some one may have it and sell it too you, even if the going rate is normally more than that.

The only problem I see with that is that it will only help people who are registered here with R.I.G. It won't do anything for all the others on the server who might start paying outragious prices


Quite true. But sadly mate we cannot hope to control everything and everyone. We can try to influence it, but we cannot control it.

Now say there was an amazing in game item that was a pain in the backside to get due its rare drop, but we as a community kept getting the odd one, and then simply sold it to each other for far less than the normal asking price, and someone asks you were you got it and how comes it cost you so little you can promote this idea and this community. And by bringing more and more people into it the greater the chance we have of at least some semblance of controlling it like you would like to see. Smile

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Godric_Barbarosa

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PostSubject: Re: Money...to buy or not to buy   Money...to buy or not to buy - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 6:50 pm

Coldhart wrote:
I think that if we see people trying to sell for outragious prices, we take it to them or their guild and say "hey, what the hell?" And get them all on the same page and reduce the price.

I don't think this is a good idea. It kind of makes us look like the mob. "lower your prices or else..." I think it would win us more enemies than friends.
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PostSubject: Re: Money...to buy or not to buy   Money...to buy or not to buy - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 6:53 pm

I am now thinking we absolutely need a trade forum on here.

Cold, your point is valid. However, for one thing, I don't see an internal trade forum as a replacement but a complement thing. And then I still think it can influence the server economy, even if you are not trading over the ingame AH (the more we are, the greater will the influence be). Alone the word being spread that there is some way to get the items at fair prices will let the prices fall.

We shouldn't ignore the AH either though. I like the point Ty's making: If a guy asks for an unreasonable price, just put ten of the item on the market at a lower price. And of course the possibility of first asking the guy what he thinks he's doing is a very good one, we should consider using.


Coldhart wrote:
We may not be able to have vendors in TOR. If our ship is basicaly our home and base of operations, then how would people get to our vendor?
I think there will certainly be an ingame mail system of some kind to allow us to make money and item transactions rather easily.

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Grome
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PostSubject: Re: Money...to buy or not to buy   Money...to buy or not to buy - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 6:56 pm

Godric_Barbarosa wrote:
Coldhart wrote:
I think that if we see people trying to sell for outragious prices, we take it to them or their guild and say "hey, what the hell?" And get them all on the same page and reduce the price.

I don't think this is a good idea. It kind of makes us look like the mob. "lower your prices or else..." I think it would win us more enemies than friends.
I guess we wouldn't be going all "I think you need protection..." Laughing

We would just nicely be asking them if they realize that their price is unreasonable and if they don't see it, we will have to call in a couple of our buds to do some "cosmetics" on his face.

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Grome
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PostSubject: Re: Money...to buy or not to buy   Money...to buy or not to buy - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 6:59 pm

Ty-Odi wrote:
Quite true. But sadly mate we cannot hope to control everything and everyone. We can try to influence it, but we cannot control it.
Why, but yes we can... nyahaha NYAHAHAHAHAAA *breaks out in evil laughter*

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azarhal

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PostSubject: Re: Money...to buy or not to buy   Money...to buy or not to buy - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 7:11 pm

Would also help is the in game system had celling prices (I already see all the QQ on the forum about that). if somebody want to sell above the ceiling they will need to trade manually and find somebody whiling to buy at their price face-to-face.

Although, I'm still for an "auction house" that isn't anonymous.

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PostSubject: Re: Money...to buy or not to buy   Money...to buy or not to buy - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 7:18 pm

The way I see it, there's different kinds of overpricing. The first one is the kind where you put an item up for sale for a ridiculous amount of money, in the hopes that someone either buys it by mistake, or has no idea of the real value. These people are obviously jerks, and it means you need to be more careful when buying stuff. I wouldn't consider this a huge problem, but I wouldn't like to associate with such people in the game.

Then there's the guys who dominate the market, either a crafter who's the only one with the recipe or just someone who farms a lot and maybe even buys stuff that others sell. If the the item in question is something that can be farmed, then the simple answer is: farm it yourself or pay what they ask for it.

But if the item is extremely rare or no one else can make it, then I suppose it is worth exactly what people are willing to pay for it. There never should be such a gamebreaking item that you simply cannot live without. If the price is too high, simply don't buy it. I really can't see it being a good thing for the community trying to force someone to sell their items for less money. If they don't sell, they will lower their prices eventually, or they'll be stuck with it and sooner or later someone will be selling the same item for less.
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PostSubject: Re: Money...to buy or not to buy   Money...to buy or not to buy - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 7:43 pm

Ty-Odi wrote:
Stryklone wrote:


That's why my question was asked, because my impression was you see a distinction between who processed the credit card and whether the conversion to game credits came at the beginning of the transaction or the end.

I'm not trying to change your view, merely attempting to understand it.


Put in simple terms.

Any item in game should be earned by time in game.

Effort Vs Reward in its simplest term. Having a bigger wallet outside of game should not allow you to skip steps in it.

An MMO should be an equal platform, anyone regardless of wealth, race or creed should be able to play it and on the exact same standard. If everyone pays a subscription, a subscription should cover everything in the game. End of.

Whats the point of playing a subscription based MMO if you simply buy everything and power level through MTs? Why not just go and play a FTP game which has that model anyways?

Buying gold/credits only further impounds this problem, on top of that, it ruins the economy of games, prices out new players, in every possible way this is bad for the games and the community.
Yep.
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Kai-Sun
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PostSubject: Re: Money...to buy or not to buy   Money...to buy or not to buy - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 8:01 pm

Godric_Barbarosa wrote:


I hope you are right Kai, but I'm not as confident as you are. I have heard how successful selling mounts at the item store was for WoW. I remember how hard I had to scrimp and save in WoW to get a mount before the economy inflation made crafting so lucrative. If I hadn't already left WoW, I would have rage quit and sent them a nasty letter when they did that.

Mount aren't game changing. It's a cosmetic decision. You were not awarded the mount skill, you still had to grind and purchase it.
Adding transactions that allow you to change a visual distinction (within the boundaries of the items, no making your space ship look like a penguin,) is fine.

It's when they give you that sick +10 Gostly Vorpal Sword of Sith Pwnage that it becomes a problem.

Nothing Blizzard sells changes the game at all besides offer an alternate way to obtain a pet or mount. It also isn't the norm. They're not going to go add 50 new pets and mounts to the store in a day. It doesn't alter the player economy, it doesn't impact raiding, pvp, or crafting. You aren't going to buy XP, you aren't going to buy credits, or an automatic lv 50 character fully kitted out with trade skills to match it's level.

I'd have a problem with that. I don't have a problem with them offering pets and mounts, so long as it doesn't get out of control.

Blizzard, as the example, still gives you the lion's share of pets/mounts for in game reasons. The rest is marketing.


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PostSubject: Re: Money...to buy or not to buy   Money...to buy or not to buy - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 8:03 pm

Kai-Sun wrote:
Being able to buy money in game, or purchase characters is wrong in my eyes, no matter who you get it from.
Thanks, that clears up my understanding of your position.

Real Money Transfer (RMT) is the subset of MT which puts real cash into game world currency. MTs can also be for server transfer, guild portraits, and expansions. Those aren't a problem. The subset of RMT is a giant problem.

I've quit two games (DDO, then LotRO when they did the same thing) which switched to "Points" to buy items, and used real money to buy points. I make no apologies for desiring fair play. Frankly, I've got money, I'd do quite well. But not fair to some means not fair at all. No other single issue is play/not play all on its own for me. This one is.

Unfortunately, RMT or not tends to be one of the last announcements a game company makes before launch.

Luckily, I'm patient. If they don't announce it by the year 2019 I'm outta here.
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Coldhart

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PostSubject: Re: Money...to buy or not to buy   Money...to buy or not to buy - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 9:18 pm

Well...in all actuality, I'm not talking about just singling each and every person out. Think I went a little overboard with that. I know it would be almost impossible to talk to every single person who sells things for outragious prices.

It's just been a sore subject with me. (Now, this is just my opinion) To me this is how I see it...like I said...people start asking rediculously high prices...others see this and think the only way they can afford stuff is to buy money...which in-turn leads to higher prices...and it's a never ending cycle that leaves the entire server's economy totaly hosed.

Thing is...it's easy for people to say "just go farm the mats yourself" or "do quests and different things to make money in the game". True enough. But what about the people who have very busy schedules and can't farm or play all the time to gather and make money...they only have enough time to play an hour or two each night. (And like I also said, I know the companion system can help this situation).

I do think the "R.I.G. Trade Federation" is a good idea on the forums. I didn't mean to just dismiss it if I did. And I definitely see your point about telling people...hell, if we spread word enough, who knows, maybe it will become the largest trading forums for the server...then...the game! "What are we gonna do tonight, Brain? We're gonna take over the world..." Mwahahaha
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Godric_Barbarosa

Godric_Barbarosa

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Join date : 2010-11-14
Age : 43
Location : Pittsburgh, PA

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PostSubject: Re: Money...to buy or not to buy   Money...to buy or not to buy - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 10:02 pm

Kai-Sun wrote:

Mount isn't game changing. It's a cosmetic decision. You were not awarded the mount skill, you still had to grind and purchase it.
Adding transactions that allow you to change a visual distinction (within the boundaries of the items, no making your space ship look like a penguin,) is fine.

It's when they give you that sick +10 Gostly Vorpal Sword of Sith Pwnage that it becomes a problem.

Nothing Blizzard sells changes the game at all besides offer an alternate way to obtain a pet or mount. It also isn't the norm. They're not going to go add 50 new pets and mounts to the store in a day. It doesn't alter the player economy, it doesn't impact raiding, pvp, or crafting. You aren't going to buy XP, you aren't going to buy credits, or an automatic lv 50 character fully kitted out with trade skills to match it's level.

I'd have a problem with that. I don't have a problem with them offering pets and mounts, so long as it doesn't get out of control.

Blizzard, as the example, still gives you the lion's share of pets/mounts for in game reasons. The rest is marketing.

OK if people are paying the same price in-game and just getting more cosmetic choices, then I was misinformed, which happens from time to time. I retract my precvious rant and completely agree with you Kai.
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Kai-Sun
Crackers Don't Matter
Kai-Sun

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PostSubject: Re: Money...to buy or not to buy   Money...to buy or not to buy - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 10:06 pm

Godric_Barbarosa wrote:


OK if people are paying the same price in-game and just getting more cosmetic choices, then I was misinformed, which happens from time to time. I retract my previous rant and completely agree with you Kai.

I'll have to double check to make sure we're on the same page and I wasn't vague or something somewhere.

The only things in WoW that you can purchase from the blizzard store, for use in game, are the celestial steed (mount, does not award riding skill. However, it DOES scale with riding speed, so it's usable if you can ride any mount speed) and the various pets (like 4-5, two of them being charity pets, half the sale goes to charity.)

You cannot unlock these items in game by just playing, they must be purchased with real currency.

However, this is the extent of items that can be added to your account. You cannot buy gold, characters, or anything that would give you an advantage. These are only visual things that you can chose to buy, they do not alter play style or give unfair advantages.

Just making sure we're on the same page. lol
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Godric_Barbarosa

Godric_Barbarosa

Posts : 293
Join date : 2010-11-14
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Location : Pittsburgh, PA

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Character Name:
Class: Jedi Consular
Guild: Looking for

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PostSubject: Re: Money...to buy or not to buy   Money...to buy or not to buy - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 10:20 pm

Kai-Sun wrote:


I'll have to double check to make sure we're on the same page and I wasn't vague or something somewhere.

The only things in WoW that you can purchase from the blizzard store, for use in game, are the celestial steed (mount, does not award riding skill. However, it DOES scale with riding speed, so it's usable if you can ride any mount speed) and the various pets (like 4-5, two of them being charity pets, half the sale goes to charity.)

You cannot unlock these items in game by just playing, they must be purchased with real currency.

However, this is the extent of items that can be added to your account. You cannot buy gold, characters, or anything that would give you an advantage. These are only visual things that you can chose to buy, they do not alter play style or give unfair advantages.

Just making sure we're on the same page. lol

I haven't played WoW in over 4 years and I haven't been following all it's developments so my knowledge and memory may be quite faulty.
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PostSubject: Re: Money...to buy or not to buy   Money...to buy or not to buy - Page 2 I_icon_minitime

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