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Quince

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PostSubject: Need or Greed   Need or Greed I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 6:31 am

Most mmo's that I have played support the simple "Need or Greed" paradigm for resolving who gets what drop in a party setup. What amazes me is how "interpretive" the concept of Need or Greed seems to be in practice. For me, "need" is used when the item is something I can immediately use that is better than what I've already got and is probably class specific whereas "greed" is something I would love to have, but I can't really justify why I should have exclusive right to. I'm bringing this up because I have been burnt a number of times by people "needing" on items that I can't see them having more than a "greed" interest in.

I'm curious what others think "Need or Greed" means.
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Coldhart

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PostSubject: Re: Need or Greed   Need or Greed I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 6:41 am

Q!!! Nice post man.

First off, people usually start to have problems with this when they don't set the loot rules at the start of the group. The leader needs to state what loot rules will be. If the loot item is something you can use now or even a couple levels from now, and is an upgrade, then you should roll "need" (especially if the iten is class specific). If the item IS class specific, no other classes should be rolling on it period (unless that class is not in the group and you want to roll for vendor trash). If the loot is nice but not that much nicer than what you have and someone else may be able to use it, then you should roll greed...or if it's something that everyone can use equally, roll greed.

Raids are easy because the leader can set master loot.

Also when you run with a bunch of friends like us, we try to gear people up equally. So if something drops for one class and you have 2 players who are that class, we generally give it to the player who isn't geared as well. But this is purely a guild to guild opinion.
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Darka

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PostSubject: Re: Need or Greed   Need or Greed I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 6:50 am

Yeah generally if you put the work in all loots is goable, but if you can use it and your of the class people generally bow out of it
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Quince

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PostSubject: Re: Need or Greed   Need or Greed I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 8:27 am

One of the excuses I have heard (a lot) is that the player needs money so they "need" on everything. Personally I think this is bogus. I mean, who doesn't need money and most games have mechanisms to farm items to generate cash. If you need the item for gear improvement, that's a "need". If you need money, that's a "greed".
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PostSubject: Re: Need or Greed   Need or Greed I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 9:16 am

Yes, there's a lot of people that would pick need out of greed. Personally I wouldn't, unless ofcourse while partying with that same group for a while I've gotten really annoyed about it.

I hope if such a system makes it in that you can't pick need if your character doesn't have a chance in the world to need it. Or that if you pick need while you can't need it that it counts as a pass.


In fact when I get a lot of lucky rolls on the need then chances are big I'll pick greed when I have a reason to pick need, as long as there are more people that can have need.

Coldhart wrote:
Also when you run with a bunch of friends like us, we try to gear people up equally. So if something drops for one class and you have 2 players who are that class, we generally give it to the player who isn't geared as well. But this is purely a guild to guild opinion.

Done that plenty of times in so called pick-up groups.
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Aurabesh

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PostSubject: Re: Need or Greed   Need or Greed I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 9:44 am

I think i can reply without using to many words...art and graphics say more then words:

[quote] "I am a Huntard and i needz al ze Epox!!1!11"[quote]

Need or Greed Danielw_lootroll932


Need or Greed 633625946455407790-NinjaKitty
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Kai-Sun
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PostSubject: Re: Need or Greed   Need or Greed I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 2:27 pm

You only need on an item if it's an upgrade for you and it's been established by the loot rules before hand and it's understood by the group. Pugs are different in if there is no announced looting style, you need only one either A: Crafting pattern you do not have drops, or B: I always ask if I may need something, since it's an upgrade, and I don't generally need again for the entire run out of fairness to the other players I'm with.

I generally greed everything otherwise. I very VERY rarely ever actually "NEED" something, and most people I run with usually say they want an item before clicking and people chat it out and *GASP* either say "You need it more then I do" or discuss it all friendly like.

Need is if you direly need it as an upgrade. Greed is if you'd like to have it but it's not important, better that it goes to someone who can make use of it.
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azarhal

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PostSubject: Re: Need or Greed   Need or Greed I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 2:28 pm

I was once in a PuG in LoTOR with a random guy who needed help to kill a specific boss for a quest in the starter zone (I already killed him twice in about 10 minutes - helping somebody and solo-), we stayed grouped after the boss was dead and killed a few more mobs. A normal mob dropped a "nice" amount of lot (2 yellow items, with potions and gold). I looked at everything and decided if I needed them or not (the system is pass or roll), the other guy clicked on roll on everything. After that he asked me if I needed the awesome axe he got (his class couldn't use the axe)...

Some people just don't care, they don't bother looking at the loot until it is in their inventory.

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Last edited by azarhal on Sun Nov 21, 2010 4:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Grome
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PostSubject: Re: Need or Greed   Need or Greed I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 4:30 pm

Yes, I really hate that too Az. For some greed = need apparently...

What will be interesting to see though is where companion characters will fit in this story, assuming they do use the same gear as regular player characters (which I do).

I'd say personally, it's not really greed if it's a valid upgrade for your companion, but it's not quite need either. You'd need a half-need for that kind of thing imo.

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azarhal

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PostSubject: Re: Need or Greed   Need or Greed I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 4:57 pm

Companions are going to make people need 10 times more stuff, but at the same some people might just gear the one they use the most while the others are back on the ship crafting...they could do that naked.

At the same time the way both Danie E. and James O. talk about loot in TOR, I feel like we might be overloaded with it...


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Kai-Sun
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PostSubject: Re: Need or Greed   Need or Greed I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 5:15 pm

/Puts on Sunglasses.

I feel the NEED, the NEED for GREED!

/moonwalks back out of thread
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Ty-Odi
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PostSubject: Re: Need or Greed   Need or Greed I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 5:24 pm

/fingers crossed for a none overly loot based MMORPG.......

Craft based gear FTW!!!!

And no, i am not a crafter, lol.

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Kai-Sun
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PostSubject: Re: Need or Greed   Need or Greed I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 5:40 pm

Ty-Odi wrote:
/fingers crossed for a none overly loot based MMORPG.......

Craft based gear FTW!!!!

And no, i am not a crafter, lol.

Well, they did say crafting was a big point of gear, but I take it that...

Depending on how you enjoy playing the game, there will be those options for you. Like pvping? Can get some amazing stuff.

Raider? Got the gear there for you?

Awesome crafter? Here's your pay off, and also helps provide others with gear.

Choose how you progress, and you'll be rewarded because it's how you want to play not how you're FORCED to play.
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Ty-Odi
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PostSubject: Re: Need or Greed   Need or Greed I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 5:45 pm

Very likely Kai.

But my hope is that crafting gear is there to at least equal raid/pvp gear.

I am happy if PVP/Raid gear looks better etc, but I don't want it to be the be all and end all. It would also help negate some of the gear score issues, and the need/greed issue. If something was pretty much cosmetic people would not be so selfish with it?

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Quince

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PostSubject: Re: Need or Greed   Need or Greed I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 6:00 pm

Timing being everything there was a discussion on "need or greed" in LOTRO's [OCC] channel last night. The observation was that in pug fellowship's people tended to "need" everything. I think my favorite response to that was "That kind of invalidates the whole usefulness of having both Need and Greed buttons. Maybe we should ask Turbine to remove the options and just do an automatic roll." Sarcasm does sometimes come through in the written word. Rolling Eyes

I agree with most here. For me, "Need" is for special circumstances and "Greed" or "Pass" is for most occasions. With friends or guildies I've been known to give an epic drop to them because they really needed it more than me. That doesn't mean I didn't need it, it was just an issue of perspective. Pugs are where "need" and "greed" tend to get abused. I just find myself wondering if I should lower my standards and match "need"s so I have a shot at getting something or stick to what I know is right and accept that others are screwing me.
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Grome
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PostSubject: Re: Need or Greed   Need or Greed I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 6:17 pm

Ty-Odi wrote:
But my hope is that crafting gear is there to at least equal raid/pvp gear.
Chances are pretty good for this to be true, as they really accentuated that crafters will create some of the best stuff on the server. I'm all for it.

Q: The hope is that we can change that crappy attitude in even PUGs through our community engagement.

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Godric_Barbarosa

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PostSubject: Re: Need or Greed   Need or Greed I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 6:53 pm

Argh, the boards seem to have eaten my post. I must have missed one of the buttons I was supposed to press.

I have seen people "Need" things for their alts. I have even seen this happen with bind-on-pick-up and when I pointed it out I just got an "oops." I fear that companions are just going to make this worse.
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Kai-Sun
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PostSubject: Re: Need or Greed   Need or Greed I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 7:52 pm

Ty-Odi wrote:
Very likely Kai.

But my hope is that crafting gear is there to at least equal raid/pvp gear.

I am happy if PVP/Raid gear looks better etc, but I don't want it to be the be all and end all. It would also help negate some of the gear score issues, and the need/greed issue. If something was pretty much cosmetic people would not be so selfish with it?

Oh I didn't mean that crafting would be any less then the other two. It should be a viable way to obtain items that are on par with raiding and PVP. It doesn't even have to look any worse then the other types of gear.
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Ty-Odi
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PostSubject: Re: Need or Greed   Need or Greed I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 7:59 pm

Kai-Sun wrote:
Ty-Odi wrote:
Very likely Kai.

But my hope is that crafting gear is there to at least equal raid/pvp gear.

I am happy if PVP/Raid gear looks better etc, but I don't want it to be the be all and end all. It would also help negate some of the gear score issues, and the need/greed issue. If something was pretty much cosmetic people would not be so selfish with it?

Oh I didn't mean that crafting would be any less then the other two. It should be a viable way to obtain items that are on par with raiding and PVP. It doesn't even have to look any worse then the other types of gear.

Well i would be ok if they were though.

Crafted should be what I would refer too as stock items. They should be those that can be made, they can even be as good if not on occasion better than those that are looted, but the effort that goes into getting those items from PVP or Raiding i think should have some kind of special feeling too them. Not stat wise, but appearance wise anyways.

Say a cloak like the Dark Jedi cloak in SWG, it was a great cloak, but no better than a master robe, but its desire factor and the reason to do all the crazy long and hard collection quests to get it was simply due to it looking awesome. That for me, should be how they do gear from PVP and Raids in TOR, not must have stat stuff, but unique, cool looking items, those must haves, that show how many times you must have run those things in order to get, rather than an 'I WIN' button. Smile

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Stryklone

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PostSubject: Re: Need or Greed   Need or Greed I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 8:28 pm

Why have need or greed at all?

Why not give each person the exact same chance for each and every bit of loot? Don't stop reading yet, I'll explain how that works.

Example: Your group of 4 killed the Big Bad Boss.

Current MMO way:
There is a 100% chance one of you walks out of here with the Sword of Kill Evil Thingies (SoKET). Joe Blow rolls the highest and wins the SoKET. You failed. The other group members also don't have the SoKET. Better luck next raid.

New MMO way:
With 4 people in the group, the base 100% changes to become 25% for each person. Joe Blow rolls under his 25% and gets the SoKET. You roll under 25% and -- here's the main point -- also get a SoKET. The other group members also have 25% chance to each win a SoKET.

The Big Bad Boss' body has enough cool swords for everyone, if the rolls are met. The body shows one sword on it as loot, but that one icon isn't literal. Each person may roll and each person may win. It doesn't matter what someone else rolled: you are not competing with them. Each of you is trying to beat the same set number, not each other.

To prevent items from flooding the world, the old percentage chance for one person only to win is divided by the number of players in the group. (With four in the group the 100% became four chances of 25%.) That way over time the same number of SoKETs will be in the world as they would have been using the old way. The Law of Averages makes it work. Rare items stay rare.

No resentment over who won. No arguments over who deserved the sword this time. No need for need or greed.
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azarhal

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PostSubject: Re: Need or Greed   Need or Greed I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 10:08 pm

GW2 loot system kind of work like that. No more kill steal as well, everybody get reward if he participated (doesn't need to be grouped, although you need to be grouped to go in a dungeon with others). Everybody get his own "loot chest".


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Godric_Barbarosa

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PostSubject: Re: Need or Greed   Need or Greed I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 10:10 pm

Stryklone wrote:
Why have need or greed at all?

Why not give each person the exact same chance for each and every bit of loot? Don't stop reading yet, I'll explain how that works.

Example: Your group of 4 killed the Big Bad Boss.

Current MMO way:
There is a 100% chance one of you walks out of here with the Sword of Kill Evil Thingies (SoKET). Joe Blow rolls the highest and wins the SoKET. You failed. The other group members also don't have the SoKET. Better luck next raid.

New MMO way:
With 4 people in the group, the base 100% changes to become 25% for each person. Joe Blow rolls under his 25% and gets the SoKET. You roll under 25% and -- here's the main point -- also get a SoKET. The other group members also have 25% chance to each win a SoKET.

The Big Bad Boss' body has enough cool swords for everyone, if the rolls are met. The body shows one sword on it as loot, but that one icon isn't literal. Each person may roll and each person may win. It doesn't matter what someone else rolled: you are not competing with them. Each of you is trying to beat the same set number, not each other.

To prevent items from flooding the world, the old percentage chance for one person only to win is divided by the number of players in the group. (With four in the group the 100% became four chances of 25%.) That way over time the same number of SoKETs will be in the world as they would have been using the old way. The Law of Averages makes it work. Rare items stay rare.

No resentment over who won. No arguments over who deserved the sword this time. No need for need or greed.

I like your idea with the one obvious caveat . The SoKET is actually four...eight...sixteen....or however many items such that every class/advanced class gets an item that is equally useful and what the item is, is matched to each individual person in the group. I hope I explained that clearly enough.
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Kai-Sun
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PostSubject: Re: Need or Greed   Need or Greed I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 10:19 pm

Godric_Barbarosa wrote:


I like your idea with the one obvious caveat . The SoKET is actually four...eight...sixteen....or however many items such that every class/advanced class gets an item that is equally useful and what the item is, is matched to each individual person in the group. I hope I explained that clearly enough.

You explained it fine, appropriate loot type instead of leaving said item rotting or going 50 runs without getting a type of drop you can even use.
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Godric_Barbarosa

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PostSubject: Re: Need or Greed   Need or Greed I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 10:23 pm

Kai-Sun wrote:


You explained it fine, appropriate loot type instead of leaving said item rotting or going 50 runs without getting a type of drop you can even use.

My trooper looks down at the epic bind on pickup lightsaber he just looted and quietly cries to himself.
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Kai-Sun
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PostSubject: Re: Need or Greed   Need or Greed I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 10:27 pm

Godric_Barbarosa wrote:

My trooper looks down at the epic bind on pickup lightsaber he just looted and quietly cries to himself.

Do not cry my friend! Have a surplus of those damn pesky Sith Glow Sticks?

Get the new Republic Lightsaber Launcher today!

Nothing says I love my job like a super sonic lightsaber being spewed at your enemy. An elegant weapon for the practical Trooper.
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