...Am I RP?

I think one thing you're assuming though Godric is that a lot of RPers making characters are going to do as you are make those characters fit within a defined story for the class arc. Which from what I've been seeing on the official swtor site and on wiki sites designed for character bios isn't the case. Truthfully I doubt very seriously many RPers will make their characters fit within those confines, and so I don't think you're going to see many SI's who are former slaves or even many SWs who refer to them as such. Even if a SW tries referring to my SI as a slave, I'd simply inform him I wasn't one. Then he can either accept that if he wants to RP or he cant and can leave and I'll continue on my merry way. Of course that situation isn't likely to happen as most of my time will be devoted to being a Jedi

We have 2 different ideas on RP.

You're choosing to RP a character within Bioware's set story. You're making your character fit their backgrounds, their choices. You're choosing to have an NPC master that will exist during this story line. The way I'm understanding it is that you're treating this as a single player game with MMO capabilities.

I am not.

I'm creating a character in the game world. I'm creating my own back-story that is not being defined by a class story arc. I am treating the game as an MMO that has dedicated story arcs to make leveling up more fun and less tedious than other MMOs I've played.

I, like you, have every intention to fully take part in the stories Bioware is crafting because I love their games. But to me, those stories are a game mechanic. I don't RP a character for a chance to follow a story. I RP a character for a chance to interact with other RP'd characters and create our own stories.

Let's say you're a Jedi Knight. In the class story arc you have a Master named Master Bob. You, in the course, of your story choose to kill Master Bob because he has fallen to the Darkside. That's great, I'm sure it was a great story since it was made by Bioware. But what happens when you meet a fellow Jedi Knight named Joe, and it turns out Joe's master was the same Master Bob, only he redeemed him. And lets say Jedi Knight Chris also had Bob for a master but chose to let him leave. The inherent problem with following a strict single player story class arc is that when you run into other people of the same class they're going to have tons of things that will conflict. All 3 characters had the same Master Bob, and all 3 had different outcomes. You say it hurts immersion to make a character that conflicts with the story arc, I say it far worse hurts immersion when the above example happens.

In FA, I'm going to have an actual player be my Master. I'm going to learn from them and grow under them and actually share a bond like seen in the lore with them. And in time I will be Knighted. And then one day I will take my own apprentice and begin the cycle anew with them. There are going to be Knight trials for every padawan to take that are tailored for them like they are in the lore. I will, in effect, have liven the Jedi experience. And I would have done it with people who all are other players and not an NPC in a story. And there's not going to be conflicts and immersion breaking because we all had different experiences. I will play the class story arcs and I will make choices based on my characters personality and beliefs, but I will not be defined by those story arcs. They are simply a way of leveling, that I will treat differently from the story I'm creating with my character, friends, and guild.

As I've said many times, we both just have different methods for how we wish to RP in this game.

Edit: Also, for what it's worth we're also both working on the assumption that the backstories provided by Bioware are important. I mean Mass Effect has backgrounds, and they were mentioned in game 2, maybe 3 times and had 1 special quest for each. If it's the same with SWTOR, and we've no reason to think it won't, the back-stories provided won't really matter much. And as for having a Master in your story arc, it's true you might be given one. But KOTOR taught us that Jedi could/would/did have multiple masters. Who's to say the one in the story is your only or last one?

As for this thread was intentionally created for: My advice for new RPers? Make a character you like. If you're playing a SI and want to be a former slave, then do that. If you're playing an SI and don't want to be a slave, then don't. The beauty of RP in an MMO is your only true limitations are game mechanics and lore. If you want to RP within a class story arc, go for it. If you'd rather treat that class story arc as a leveling mechanic and instead get your character story from other people/guild, then do that. Make a character you enjoy being and find other players you enjoy being around, and the rest will fall into place.

I actually agree with Polemos on this one.

I am throroughly looking forward to the story of my Sith Inquisitor as told by BioWare, but any and all that happens during my path with BioWares story will literally only be that. I may nick certain parts for my characters back story but that will be the end of it.

Its the same with your companions. If we cannot rename them in some way, and change how they look, they will have no place being with me in RP, and will not come out. I really don't need to see the same companions, all looking the same, and all called the same thanks.

They will have their place as I level, but end game? I will find a way to play without them if I cannot rename them and change how they look etc. This is one thing that worries me, not only from an RP perspective, but also a gameplay one, I think it would just suck to see us all have the exact same companions....but thats a discussion for another time and place perhaps?

Polemos, I mostly agree with your last post with a few comments.

Polemos wrote:

IWe have 2 different ideas on RP.

You're choosing to RP a character within Bioware's set story. You're making your character fit their backgrounds, their choices. You're choosing to have an NPC master that will exist during this story line. The way I'm understanding it is that you're treating this as a single player game with MMO capabilities.

I am not.

I disagree with your characterization that I am treating this as a single player game with MMO capabilities. That is rubbish and seems to belittle people that are going to fully immerse themselves in the class story arcs. I am going to fully engage in the MMO for RP as well as game mechanics.

Polemos wrote:

I, like you, have every intention to fully take part in the stories Bioware is crafting because I love their games. But to me, those stories are a game mechanic. I don't RP a character for a chance to follow a story. I RP a character for a chance to interact with other RP'd characters and create our own stories.

I don't see how you can "fully take part in the stories Bioware is crafting" when you are treating them as just a game mechanic to level your character. You will not be "fully' engaged because your choices in the game mechanic story arc won't be definoing who your character is. Your choices are a game mechanic and not what defines your character. It would be like choosing option A because I want the game mechanic of maxing out my light side points and not because it is what the character would actually do.

Polemos wrote:

Let's say you're a Jedi Knight. In the class story arc you have a Master named Master Bob. You, in the course, of your story choose to kill Master Bob because he has fallen to the Darkside. That's great, I'm sure it was a great story since it was made by Bioware. But what happens when you meet a fellow Jedi Knight named Joe, and it turns out Joe's master was the same Master Bob, only he redeemed him. And lets say Jedi Knight Chris also had Bob for a master but chose to let him leave. The inherent problem with following a strict single player story class arc is that when you run into other people of the same class they're going to have tons of things that will conflict. All 3 characters had the same Master Bob, and all 3 had different outcomes. You say it hurts immersion to make a character that conflicts with the story arc, I say it far worse hurts immersion when the above example happens.

This is an easy one as there is no reason to say that Master Bob is the same person in all three stories, he's a different person in each characters story. I killed Captain Asshole and you saved Captain Asshole. They are two different captains following to different republic ships. Yeah, they have the same name but apparently the Empire is filled with Assholes. (Note to Selven profanity filter- Spaceballs was rated PG)

A more difficult one will be the world arcs- If I save Taris and you destroy it. It will be interesting how Bioware solves this kind of problem (if they even allow it to come up). But even here a little imagination goes a long way.

Polemos wrote:

In FA, I'm going to have an actual player be my Master. I'm going to learn from them and grow under them and actually share a bond like seen in the lore with them. And in time I will be Knighted. And then one day I will take my own apprentice and begin the cycle anew with them. There are going to be Knight trials for every padawan to take that are tailored for them like they are in the lore. I will, in effect, have liven the Jedi experience. And I would have done it with people who all are other players and not an NPC in a story.

I'll admit this sounds great and I hope to find it in a guild that offers a similar experience and can still live within the stories created by Bioware.

Polemos wrote:

And there's not going to be conflicts and immersion breaking because we all had different experiences. I will play the class story arcs and I will make choices based on my characters personality and beliefs, but I will not be defined by those story arcs. They are simply a way of leveling, that I will treat differently from the story I'm creating with my character, friends, and guild.

To me the conflict and immersion breaking is living through 100+ hours of story that I don't consider my own.

Polemos wrote:

Edit: Also, for what it's worth we're also both working on the assumption that the backstories provided by Bioware are important. I mean Mass Effect has backgrounds, and they were mentioned in game 2, maybe 3 times and had 1 special quest for each. If it's the same with SWTOR, and we've no reason to think it won't, the back-stories provided won't really matter much. And as for having a Master in your story arc, it's true you might be given one. But KOTOR taught us that Jedi could/would/did have multiple masters. Who's to say the one in the story is your only or last one?

I whole-heartily agree with this. Even in the movies, Obi Wan considered Yoda his master after Qui Gon died and Obi Wan was made a Jedi Knight. So why can't the FA master system work in the same way. I can take a FA master after my master has died/left or even while he/she is still my master. I can take an FA master even if by my personal story I am a full knight. Hell, even if I am a Master I would love to have a mentor. I am not saying FA should change there system, I'm just saying there is no reason why an FA type of master system couldn't live in harmony with the Bioware story structure and the greater IP lore.


Because we have mostly strayed from the advice for new RPers this will probably be my last posts in this friendly discussion I have thoroughly enjoyed (and I am not being sarcastic, which is a rare occurrence). I am very opinionated, and I love discussing things with an open-mind. I am ready even to change my opinions as new information is brought to my attention. However, I don't like to continue discussing when it appears neither side is going to change his/her mind. We just have to agree to disagree. Ironically, we agree on the major point- one should RP as they see fit.We are just arguing the validity of two different ways of doing that. Yet we both agree that the other person's method is valid.

At no point was I trying to belittle your style by saying it seemed like you were treating it as a single player game. It's just from the way you described your intent, that's the way it appeared in mind. I never meant to cause offense by stating my view on it.

As you said, neither one of us is going to change our minds. I prefer my way, but I understand why you do it the way you do as well. It's just a style that I like to use in an MMO setting. In a single player game I do follow strictly to the story provided, but in an MMO I look to get my story from my interaction with others. It's just different strokes for different folks.

I can fully partake in the story pretty easily. The choices I make won't be based on what they award me, they'll be based on how I truly believe my character would react and choose. So why I may not consider the class story arc (or any story arc for that matter) to be absolute canon for my character....I will use his personality, believes, and ideals as the basis for the choices I make. It allows me to be apart of said story with the character, and yet still keep the character I want to use for my interaction with other actual players.
To me; these crafted stories are one version of my character and the stories made with other players is another. In reality, they're the same character with the same personality....but I treat their canon and continuity as being different.

Because for me, I do view the stories as a leveling mechanic; albeit one I can enjoy infinitely more than "go here, kill mobs, collect 10 pelts, rinse and repeat."

I love a good story, more than anything else. But, the reason I RP is for freedom and interaction with other players. That's my mindset.

My way isn't the only way, nor is it the best (because truly no one way is 'best' in that regard), but it is the best for me

Godric_Barbarosa wrote:

I hope someone finds this useful or I just did a lot of typing for no reason.

Very nice list. And I don't care that you shamelessly stole it - I'm shameless that way.

I would add a few thoughts of my own about role playing in an MMO.

If you plan to RP your PvP (and PvP your RP) I would suggest you give some thought to a couple of additional questions:

1a. Why (when, who) do you kill?
1b. Why (when, who) do you NOT kill?

2a. What effect does winning a fight have on your character?
2b. What effect does losing a fight have on your character?


I get a great deal of enjoyment out of being very immersed in the world and the game. So for my own game play and role play, in addition to personality traits, I try to come up with a character that can go everywhere I need to go, with anyone I need to go with, to play the game. I don't enjoy having to drop character to play the game, and I don't want to sacrifice playing the game to stay in character. Many other role players don't mind that at all.

Polemos wrote:

I'd much rather create a character with an original background, who is a Jedi during the Old Republic Era and work from there. Instead of saying "My Knight was sent on a mission to put and end to Lord Guy's plans on Tatooine" like every Knight does as part of their class story arc. (READ: That is an example and not an actual mission from what I'm aware), I'd instead create a story about receiving a mission to stop a Sith, but not give names. If I keep true to the exact questline, then every Knight I meet will have gone through it to. And my question would be "How the heck did they do the exact same thing I did if I already stopped him?"

Funny, I thought I was disagreeing with you until I got to this point - and yes, on this (at least) we agree exactly. I prefer to stay with the gist of the story and world created by the game creators. But obviously if we are all doing exactly the same thing, we can't be literal about every detail and remain immersed.

A few examples from Age of Conan (sorry I don't have appropriate Star Wars lore examples):

1. Yes my character has spent time in Tortage and worked with the Resistance there. Did my character personally slay the tyrant Strom? No. But she has slain mages and tyrants. "Which mages and tyrants you ask? Are you checking my credentials? Mages and tyrants - that's all you need to know. If that isn't good enough for you, then maybe you need to find a different girl to help you with this job."

2. "You like this armor? Thanks, I love it. I looted it while raiding a camp of vile Black Ring Sorcerors - spoils of war, you know."

Polemos wrote:

I think one thing you're assuming though Godric is that a lot of RPers making characters are going to do as you are make those characters fit within a defined story for the class arc. Which from what I've been seeing on the official swtor site and on wiki sites designed for character bios isn't the case. Truthfully I doubt very seriously many RPers will make their characters fit within those confines, and so I don't think you're going to see many SI's who are former slaves or even many SWs who refer to them as such. Even if a SW tries referring to my SI as a slave, I'd simply inform him I wasn't one. Then he can either accept that if he wants to RP or he cant and can leave and I'll continue on my merry way. Of course that situation isn't likely to happen as most of my time will be devoted to being a Jedi

I suspect that Godric's RP is very similar in style to mine - and very different from many other RPers I have encountered recently.

It seems that he (and I) consider NPCs as much part of the world as RPers (and non-RPers, and people we don't "RP with"). So the NPCs will possibly openly refer to your SI as a slave. If you choose to ignore NPCs as part of the world, that is your choice. If you prefer to bring them into the world and part of your character's experience, then you still have the choice of informing him (ah yeah - I talk to NPCs *blush*) that you are not, remaining quiet to his face and mumbling curses behind his back, or whatever other response your character might have to his incorrect and arrogant belief.

Quote :

Let's say you're a Jedi Knight. In the class story arc you have a Master named Master Bob. You, in the course, of your story choose to kill Master Bob because he has fallen to the Darkside. That's great, I'm sure it was a great story since it was made by Bioware. But what happens when you meet a fellow Jedi Knight named Joe, and it turns out Joe's master was the same Master Bob, only he redeemed him. And lets say Jedi Knight Chris also had Bob for a master but chose to let him leave. The inherent problem with following a strict single player story class arc is that when you run into other people of the same class they're going to have tons of things that will conflict. All 3 characters had the same Master Bob, and all 3 had different outcomes. You say it hurts immersion to make a character that conflicts with the story arc, I say it far worse hurts immersion when the above example happens.

But how do you know these details about the other people, and they yours? Do you really tell everyone you meet everything you have done to date? I know I don't, and generally excuse myself when someone tries to regale me with details of his back story and many exciting adventures. Even if you do end up talking about it, obviously it can't be the same person, since one killed him and later the other one redeemed him. So it must be different people. You hand-wave past it and move on. Why would anyone be dwelling on these details and comparing them as part of their RP?

I'm not saying you cannot RP your way - of course you can. I'm simply saying that the claims that sticking with the provided story can't work are inappropriate. They can be made to work if you choose to. And if you choose not to - that's fine too.

Quote :

I, like you, have every intention to fully take part in the stories Bioware is crafting because I love their games. But to me, those stories are a game mechanic. I don't RP a character for a chance to follow a story. I RP a character for a chance to interact with other RP'd characters and create our own stories.

I have discovered recently that this represents a rather significant division among RPers in an MMO. I do hope we will be able to bridge that gap. I do prefer working within the world we are playing together in, as created by the game developer. Sometimes a little creativity is needed to adapt and interpret the events in game to create a believable and interesting character with some growth and development. I got started in RP by simply feeling immersed in the game experiences, responding to events in the game from the perspective of my character. But I have also discovered the fun of working with other RPers in intense, dramatic, spontaneous, and dynamic group "stories" and want to continue that. I hope we will be able to form a respectful community who will be able to work together.

Ty-Odi wrote:

They will have their place as I level, but end game? I will find a way to play without them if I cannot rename them and change how they look etc. This is one thing that worries me, not only from an RP perspective, but also a gameplay one, I think it would just suck to see us all have the exact same companions....but thats a discussion for another time and place perhaps?

I have to admit something that may be heresy in an RP forum and may sound completely contradictory to my previous several posts. (BTW hi everyone - new to the forum here. *waves*) My previous posts are of how I hope to be able to play, and how I have played in the past. I was excited about the game when I first learned of it. But as they reveal more and more detail about it, I've been fearing that it will be a very nice single-player game with a lot of other people around to do things with. I am worried that they will force us into too narrow a story and path so that our only viable choice will be to ignore the game to RP in the game. If Bioware makes my preferred game play style completely incompatible with collaborative RP, it would make me extremely unhappy. And it would probably result in me giving up on RP in this game.

CitySpiritMama wrote:

I suspect that Godric's RP is very similar in style to mine - and very different from many other RPers I have encountered recently.

It seems that he (and I) consider NPCs as much part of the world as RPers (and non-RPers, and people we don't "RP with"). So the NPCs will possibly openly refer to your SI as a slave. If you choose to ignore NPCs as part of the world, that is your choice. If you prefer to bring them into the world and part of your character's experience, then you still have the choice of informing him (ah yeah - I talk to NPCs *blush*) that you are not, remaining quiet to his face and mumbling curses behind his back, or whatever other response your character might have to his incorrect and arrogant belief.

Welcome CSM. This made me laugh. I think it is true. I think I feel that way because I like to GM, and I put a lot of work into my NPC's, probably more than most players put into there PC's. As a GM I don't control the story, at least not more than the players, and they always seem to take the story in directions I didn't expect. However I do control the NPC's. I don't like to railroad my players so I try and leave multiple possible solutions and outcomes. Many ways to skin a cat as they say.

CitySpiritMama wrote:

(BTW hi everyone - new to the forum here. *waves*)

Hello CitySpiritMama! =D

I have to admit, I haven't RP'd really in an MMO, but I don't think talking to an NPC is too odd an idea, just would need people willing to answer for him in case it requires it.

I am really really excited though to RP with my characters, I thought I only had some more basic ideas of who they were, but when asked by a friend about them, I ended up writing over 8 5k pages of forum private messages to them on the spot at like 2:30 in the morning.

lol

Kai-Sun wrote:

I have to admit, I haven't RP'd really in an MMO, but I don't think talking to an NPC is too odd an idea, just would need people willing to answer for him in case it requires it.

I've had other people say the same thing. But I prefer not to have someone talking for the NPC and I just "hear" the responses. Someone else isn't going to understand the history I have built up with this person. I avoid making those relationships unsupportable by the game reality. For example, I routinely discuss business with the governor of Tesso (in Age of Conan) and slip him a little coin to be sure my shipments go through without too many questions. This doesn't affect any game-play issues for anyone - it just lets me flesh out the RP of it more.

It came in handy when a crazed mob attacked our social RP event in Tesso a few consecutive times. Although we fought back, we were badly outnumbered. So after we wiped we made a quick escape and I RP'd that the governor's people hustled us out the back to safety. Altruism? No. He just didn't want his town trashed any more by the crazed mob. I did some follow-up RP later in which he asked us not to have our party in his town any more until that insane rabble had been dealt with.

But the important thing about this is - it doesn't give any kind of "I win", or power over others in RP. I don't RP that the governor throws them out, for example. That's unsupportable in the game reality. It just smooths over and gives a mechanism for the necessity of getting out of town alive.

I also have some NPCs in Khemi who keep me plugged in to "the streets". I use them to "pass messages" to some people who work for me when our play schedules don't match up well, or when the circumstances of the RP prevent us from speaking in person.

But I don't just pull these things out of the air. I've built up this "network" with actual RP, spending time making return visits to those people, asking questions out loud in say so that anyone spying could see, over the period of a couple of years. It's saved my ass a couple of times. I also have a smuggler in Khemi (the outlaw camp) who has saved my ass and a couple of other people from time to time.

CitySpiritMama wrote:

I've had other people say the same thing. But I prefer not to have someone talking for the NPC and I just "hear" the responses.

I was mostly going on the idea of an NPC that like 4-5 people are interacting with at the same time. Say you're a member of Havoc Squad, playing your Trooper character in TOR (cause that's the unit you're in,) you and other Troopers are standing in front of your CO. The CO is the only NPC in the briefing hall that you and the other RPers are in, you all have a history of sorts with this CO, unless that person is a raw recruit. Who just "hears" the responses, if you're all interacting with this guy? Someone or everyone has to give this guy life, you can't just have one person hearing his responses since he's addressing the group.

That's basically what I meant, situations where it'd be needed for one person or many to act/talk for the NPC in question. I know you said you don't do anything that wouldn't be supported by the game reality, but I really just felt like typing this out, lol.

Kai-Sun wrote:

CitySpiritMama wrote:

I've had other people say the same thing. But I prefer not to have someone talking for the NPC and I just "hear" the responses.

I was mostly going on the idea of an NPC that like 4-5 people are interacting with at the same time. Say you're a member of Havoc Squad, playing your Trooper character in TOR (cause that's the unit you're in,) you and other Troopers are standing in front of your CO. The CO is the only NPC in the briefing hall that you and the other RPers are in, you all have a history of sorts with this CO, unless that person is a raw recruit. Who just "hears" the responses, if you're all interacting with this guy? Someone or everyone has to give this guy life, you can't just have one person hearing his responses since he's addressing the group.

That's basically what I meant, situations where it'd be needed for one person or many to act/talk for the NPC in question. I know you said you don't do anything that wouldn't be supported by the game reality, but I really just felt like typing this out, lol.

Ah. Gotcha.

I've only been in that situation once, and we did have one of us doing the talking for the NPC. The one of us doing the talking was the most junior member of our party ic so he was silent while the officers did the talking - so it worked well and everyone got to play a part.

Yea, it's something really easily worked out, at least I'd think it would be with all cool headed and fun people.

I'm really looking forward into getting some RP going in TOR, the more I think of my characters the more I'm able to add detail and flesh them out...but I'd really like to have actual events made by players and myself help shape the people they are.

Can't wait