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Grome
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PostSubject: Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite.   Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite. I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 27, 2010 6:07 pm

Fellow RiGers!

Now, this is a well known subject. It has been slightly touched in other threads. It is disliked by some.

For some others, me included, it adds another level to your game.

I like to examine how things work so I can figure out the best skill rotation, the most efficient gear combination. I like to analyze what I do and I like it to be a min-maxer. (It does not mean I like to be the best... I just like to improve and get the best out of my possibilities)
I will very probably be doing it in TOR again. I am just into this. It’s a part of MMO-gaming for me, at least when I want to be gaming on a high level.

This thread is here to let you express your thoughts about this, whether you like it or not. The former would be appreciated more though.

Are you a theorycrafter or analyst? If so, why? Will you be one in TOR? How will you proceed? Will things be different in TOR? And of course any other points you can come up with.

Thank you for your opinions in advance!

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azarhal

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PostSubject: Re: Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite.   Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite. I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 27, 2010 6:54 pm

Grome wrote:
This thread is here to let you express your thoughts about this, whether you like it or not. The former would be appreciated more though.

Scared of felling lonely? tongue

I'm a bit into min/maxing. Mostly caused by an efficiency obsession, real life allowed me to deal with that though.

Later, I found out that I find games boring when I reach "100%". I do love finding (and playing with) my own build that fit my play style though and I do read others theories (partially, they can be really Sleep) to see what people think. Sometimes you gets ideas to try as well (usually in the "Don't do that" category...they can be fun to do regardless Wink ).

With TOR, I don't really want to do it that much. Mostly because it was by playing a BioWare game that I found out I didn't have that much fun. I will still look at my gear and what I want to do though, I just don't think I will try to achieve 100% output like I used to do in the past.

And I want my characters to look cool. afro Oh and the story might affect this as well. I don't plan to "max" a side (dark/neutral/light), I want to follow the flow of the story.

That's about it...

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Kai-Sun
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PostSubject: Re: Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite.   Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite. I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 27, 2010 7:01 pm

I can't dislike it because it's how some people like to play, obviously.

I'm not a hard core theorycrafter, though I still generally look at how to improve my character and make him the best he can be. I chock it up to loving to learn, how mechanics work and etc. I don't however use it for what some (won't say most, because I don't want to cast a bad light on people who do theory craft) try to by excluding people from groups. In the end I'm pretty laid back about it if people want to do it or not, and I'm a pretty open player.

I do check to see what works best and sometimes visit sites such as elitist jerks to see how the actual abilities and mechanics, stat weights and such are actively changing, mostly cause I like being able to give informed info and can really play at peak performance should it be required of me. That, and I like being REALLY good for my guild's sake, so I can help them with anything, big or small.
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PostSubject: Re: Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite.   Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite. I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 27, 2010 7:12 pm

Well I was a massive defence stacker in SWG but I will admit i have lost interest a little in this side of games, mostly due to me not doing pvp or hard core raiding so much, I guess it just did not matter any longer.

We'll see if we all pvp and raid in this game i may look into it again, but I suspect I
Will play this for the social aspects more than the hardcore, I just don't have the energy to be that good any more lol Smile

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Narevek

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PostSubject: Re: Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite.   Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite. I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 27, 2010 7:22 pm

I'm one who will figure out the mechanics and intricacies of every class and ability in the game fairly quickly...and then purposely throw it out the window, lol.

Rather than going with the obvious "best" builds, I tend to prefer to go with my own unique setups which others might think is weaker, but ultimately works better for me in the long run. For gear, I tend to look at style as much as stats and will allow minor deficiencies for superior looks, haha

Of course, I love it when someone who doesn't play my class tells me I'm playing it wrong or have gimped myself. My guild's good about keeping a "Play what you like" stance, so being excluded from groups isn't ever an issue from me. Whether or not a build I choose is actually gimped or not doesn't matter, as long as the player behind the build isn't gimped. Wink


The real fun part is when people I know start asking me for advice on how to build their characters, lol. It's not like I've ever been an expert on creating the best possible setups...I just know how to find the best setup for myself.
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Grome
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PostSubject: Re: Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite.   Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite. I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 27, 2010 7:32 pm

azarhal wrote:
And I want my characters to look cool. afro Oh and the story might affect this as well. I don't plan to "max" a side (dark/neutral/light), I want to follow the flow of the story.
Yes, I most likely didn't mean that kind of min-maxing and I will not exactly aim for alignment maxing either. I want to play what and how I want and in the limits of this way to play I want to get the most out of it.

Kai-Sun wrote:
I can't dislike it because it's how some people like to play, obviously.

I'm not a hard core theorycrafter, though I still generally look at how to improve my character and make him the best he can be. I chock it up to loving to learn, how mechanics work and etc. I don't however use it for what some (won't say most, because I don't want to cast a bad light on people who do theory craft) try to by excluding people from groups. In the end I'm pretty laid back about it if people want to do it or not, and I'm a pretty open player.

I do check to see what works best and sometimes visit sites such as elitist jerks to see how the actual abilities and mechanics, stat weights and such are actively changing, mostly cause I like being able to give informed info and can really play at peak performance should it be required of me. That, and I like being REALLY good for my guild's sake, so I can help them with anything, big or small.
I'm very much against people being forced to do it. Obviously this part of the game is not for everyone and frankly, it's not entirely needed to be a good player. You should do it because you enjoy it and want to do it.

When I was still playing WoW, I was actually one of the few in my raid who actively did it (that is, unless everyone did it in secret lol). We were still fine and progressed nicely. I just felt I needed to know where I am going, what stuff I need, how to improve my way of playing and if I could I gave advice to fellow class mates. I was enjoying it very much and it gave myself some extra satisfaction when I saw it worked. Used to read a lot on the elitist jerks forums as well.
If other people asked I was glad to help but I always knew this was not a common enjoyment.

One thing I will enjoy at the beginning in TOR is figuring out builds. It's always kind of boring to get in a game and people tell you you should either spec x/x/x or y/y/y.

Another thing I am looking forward to is doing the same min-maxing thing for my companions.

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azarhal

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PostSubject: Re: Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite.   Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite. I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 27, 2010 7:51 pm

Grome wrote:
azarhal wrote:
And I want my characters to look cool. afro Oh and the story might affect this as well. I don't plan to "max" a side (dark/neutral/light), I want to follow the flow of the story.
Yes, I most likely didn't mean that kind of min-maxing and I will not exactly aim for alignment maxing either. I want to play what and how I want and in the limits of this way to play I want to get the most out of it.

What are you gonna do if other side alignment rewards/abilities are "better for what you want to do? I know that some people are scared of the possibility that all "healers" will need to be light sided and all dps dark sided.

Personally, I don't care about it.

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Coldhart

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PostSubject: Re: Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite.   Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite. I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 27, 2010 7:58 pm

Well, I think you guys (and gals) probably already know my stance from some other posts (I won't mention them and let them roll over here).

I am definitely a min/maxer and I view elitist as a good thing, not bad. To me elitist just means that you try to get the best out of your character stat wise. There are a lot of elitists who actually are jerks and now people tend to associate being an elitist as a bad thing.

For WoW, I used elitistjerks.com all the time for my toons. I did take it with a grain of salt however. Those posts and theorycrafting can make your eyes bleed and your head spin trying to take in all that info and all the different formulas.

We had class leaders set up in most of my guilds in WoW. This wasn't to tell people how to play, but rather to help people when they wanted to learn about their class. These min/maxers or elitists were the perfect candidates for these class lead positions.

In every guild I've been in we have always felt that everyone pays their sub and they have the right to play what they want. We would never try to inforce our opinions on anyone but would always help when asked. And we were so close in most cases that people loved being able to come to us and ask anything about their toon. Everyone knew that noone would redicule them for anything.

I'll be doing this in TOR for myself and I'll always be there for anyone who may have questions about their characters. Provided I've done the research on that specific character.

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Coldhart

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PostSubject: Re: Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite.   Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite. I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 27, 2010 8:00 pm

azarhal wrote:
Grome wrote:
azarhal wrote:
And I want my characters to look cool. afro Oh and the story might affect this as well. I don't plan to "max" a side (dark/neutral/light), I want to follow the flow of the story.
Yes, I most likely didn't mean that kind of min-maxing and I will not exactly aim for alignment maxing either. I want to play what and how I want and in the limits of this way to play I want to get the most out of it.

What are you gonna do if other side alignment rewards/abilities are "better for what you want to do? I know that some people are scared of the possibility that all "healers" will need to be light sided and all dps dark sided.

Personally, I don't care about it.

We've already seen from the vids that healing and dps will be availible on both sides.
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Grome
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PostSubject: Re: Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite.   Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite. I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 27, 2010 8:00 pm

azarhal wrote:
What are you gonna do if other side alignment rewards/abilities are "better for what you want to do? I know that some people are scared of the possibility that all "healers" will need to be light sided and all dps dark sided.

Personally, I don't care about it.
I am fairly sure they won't make all DPS go dark-side and healers go light-side.
And since you have played BW games you probably know that this is not how they make you get alignment points. It will still be all about your decision-making and whether you are dark-side or light-side won't make a big difference in performance.

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PostSubject: Re: Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite.   Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite. I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 27, 2010 8:43 pm

Well, i'm not the best or the most dedicated analyst when it comes to max all the char's potential. In WoW I, sometimes, used elitistsjerks to see if my build and play style was the right one. Most of the times it was, when it "wasn't" I would follow their advice. I want to be the best I can be, so if they have graphics and records that show that those builds/items/enchants are the best for the class then I will try them on my char for sure.

On TOR I will try (as I did on WoW) to be the best of my class, so ye, I will have to crunch some numbers at the start before the guides apear. ^^
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PostSubject: Re: Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite.   Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite. I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 27, 2010 8:46 pm

Grome wrote:
azarhal wrote:
What are you gonna do if other side alignment rewards/abilities are "better for what you want to do? I know that some people are scared of the possibility that all "healers" will need to be light sided and all dps dark sided.

Personally, I don't care about it.
I am fairly sure they won't make all DPS go dark-side and healers go light-side.
And since you have played BW games you probably know that this is not how they make you get alignment points. It will still be all about your decision-making and whether you are dark-side or light-side won't make a big difference in performance.

About this, I don't want to go to one side just so I can be the best at damage/healing. That kinda ruins the point of the choices for the players that care about story but care even more about raiding/pvp.
If that happens I'll probably have diplomacy missions on all my chars. :\
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azarhal

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PostSubject: Re: Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite.   Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite. I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 27, 2010 9:13 pm

Coldhart wrote:
We've already seen from the vids that healing and dps will be availible on both sides.

scratch I'm talking about Sith Inquisitor having to pick the nice Sith answers to make good Sith Sorcerer/healers and Jedi Knights Sentinel having to pick "evil" story choices to make good damage dealer.

All classes have dark and light side story choices and it was confirmed a long time ago that the alignment "meter" affects certain things like abilities choices (or something like, they were a bit vague about what exactly the alignment, but abilities were mentioned).

Example, in KoTOR these were the bonuses you got for alignment mastery:

Quote :
For Light Side Mastery, you get the following benefits...
Consular : +3 Charisma
Guardian : +3 Strength
Sentinel : +3 Constitution

For Dark Side Master, you get the following benefits...
Consular : +50 Force Points
Guardian : +1d8 damage
Sentinel : Immunity - Poison

We might get something similar for TOR...and lots of QQ along with it. Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite. 653443

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PostSubject: Re: Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite.   Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite. I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 27, 2010 9:33 pm

Grome wrote:
Fellow RiGers!

Now, this is a well known subject. It has been slightly touched in other threads. It is disliked by some.

For some others, me included, it adds another level to your game.

I like to examine how things work so I can figure out the best skill rotation, the most efficient gear combination. I like to analyze what I do and I like it to be a min-maxer. (It does not mean I like to be the best... I just like to improve and get the best out of my possibilities)
I will very probably be doing it in TOR again. I am just into this. It’s a part of MMO-gaming for me, at least when I want to be gaming on a high level.

This thread is here to let you express your thoughts about this, whether you like it or not. The former would be appreciated more though.

Are you a theorycrafter or analyst? If so, why? Will you be one in TOR? How will you proceed? Will things be different in TOR? And of course any other points you can come up with.

Thank you for your opinions in advance!

Oh man Smile Don't do this, please. Don't turn the game into some sort of science where the numbers are kings. Gearscore, DPS meters and such made me quit WoW. In order to be invited in a group (raid requirements were even worst) i had to link my GS, achievements, Curriculum Vitae and a recommendation from my Mom. So annoying!
Why can't we just play the game? Try different builds, talents, tactics and see what is best for you and what you enjoy most. I do it all the time. But why measure everything numerically? If you enjoy build A, but numbers tell you build B gives you more dps/healing/whatever - so what you do? Go build B just because of the numbers? scratch
But the numbers WILL be there, anyway. Its inevitable Smile Ehhhh...
I hope i don't sound too harsh. It's nothing personal, just dislike the idea.
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Grome
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PostSubject: Re: Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite.   Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite. I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 27, 2010 10:04 pm

No offense taken. You're misunderstanding my point here anyway. I'm not looking to make numbers the most important thing. Gearscore is also unrelated to Theorycrafting as far as I'm concerned. Gearscore is about getting the best gear. Theorycrafting is about much more. It can be about what you do with your available possibilities to make it work best (even if you don't have the fancy gear). It can be about making that build that you like so much work in a raid. It can be whatever you want it to be. It's usually the ones not adept in this that end up telling you there is just this one and only build you can spec to be good.

As I said, I'm not gonna bother anyone who doesn't wanna hear about the math. I'm doing this for myself and will willingly discuss it with anyone who wants to learn about it.

Also, It's very much as Cold said. Being an elitist is no bad thing. They just have a bad reputation because some really are jerks and use their math to tell others they suck.

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Grome
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PostSubject: Re: Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite.   Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite. I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 27, 2010 10:11 pm

azarhal wrote:
scratch I'm talking about Sith Inquisitor having to pick the nice Sith answers to make good Sith Sorcerer/healers and Jedi Knights Sentinel having to pick "evil" story choices to make good damage dealer.

All classes have dark and light side story choices and it was confirmed a long time ago that the alignment "meter" affects certain things like abilities choices (or something like, they were a bit vague about what exactly the alignment, but abilities were mentioned).
You're certainly right and alignment will make a difference somewhere (otherwise who would care about it?). I just don't really think it will affect your ability to be good at what you want to be within your class.

That is not what Bioware want and they have made that clear. Can't see them going down that road.

Nobody wants to be forced into being a different character just because the DPS/healing/whatever is better.

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PostSubject: Re: Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite.   Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite. I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 27, 2010 10:15 pm

I'm a big fan of maxing stats in RPGs, I like to try and make the best character build for my toons. I'm honestly not sure how much room TOR will have for that type of thing, maybe we will know more when information about the advanced classes is available?


I've been playing DDO since it's free and that is a really good game for people that like to build custom characters. It's based on the D&D d20 rule set and you can customize just about everything for your character; Attributes, Skills, Feats, Spells etc. You actually have to research and plan how to build your character before you even start if you want to min-max a custom-made character, but there is no one build that's optimal because you can even multi-class.
I hope TOR has some of that, I find games that automatically build your characters for you or have limited choices not as interesting.

I recommend checking DDO out if you haven't already, because if you like building RPG characters, you'll love DDO. Plus, if you have played D&D, NWN or even the KOTORs then you will be already familiar with d20. The only down-side is it doesn't have good PvP.
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PostSubject: Re: Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite.   Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite. I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 28, 2010 1:20 am

I don't mind other people min/maxing, but I don't like letting someone else tell me w the best cookie cutter build is for me. What is tbe best theoretical build may not be for every one becaise of their twitch speed, ect. I will play what I think is fun. That being said I find a character that is strong and contributes to the success of the group to be more fun than a gimpy freeloader.
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PostSubject: Re: Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite.   Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite. I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 28, 2010 2:14 am

Grome wrote:


Are you a theorycrafter or analyst? If so, why? Will you be one in TOR? How will you proceed? Will things be different in TOR? And of course any other points you can come up with.

Thank you for your opinions in advance!

I totally was a theorycrafter in WoW. I knew pretty much everything about my class, I would post guys in my forums, and I was was class leader. It didn't really feel like a job to me like some argue; for me knowing my class up and down was fun. Although part of me also did it to "prove" myself to my guild, back then in vanilla WoW female players were still looked by some as "mediocre players" who were only invited to raids cause they were... well females. Which was something I've always hated, so I felt I needed to be better then the average player. Gogo my feminist side! :p

Anyway... I'll probably still be a theorycrafter in TOR cause like I said, it's something I enjoy. I won't do the whole math thing or test anything though, but rather search along guides and make the best with the info I get.

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PostSubject: Re: Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite.   Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite. I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 28, 2010 3:32 am

I say we make ourselves a theorycrafter's hub in here Smile should be enough of us come release to make it interesting.


By the way, how do you guys think about theorycrafting for your companions? At least gear and skills may be influenced.

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PostSubject: Re: Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite.   Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite. I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 28, 2010 3:35 am

Grome wrote:
...Gearscore is also unrelated to Theorycrafting as far as I'm concerned. Gearscore is about getting the best gear. Theorycrafting is about much more. It can be about what you do with your available possibilities to make it work best (even if you don't have the fancy gear). It can be about making that build that you like so much work in a raid. It can be whatever you want it to be. It's usually the ones not adept in this that end up telling you there is just this one and only build you can spec to be good.
...

Amen! Hallelujah! Preach it! Ahem, I ah, seem to have gotten carried away there...

I try to build my characters to the limit of what they are. I hope that Light/Dark side points don't impact my numbers. I want the versatility to craft a personality that suits me without impacting my choice of group role. Even if it does impact the numbers, I'll end up playing my character's storyline how I wish to, without regard for the numbers.

I've played in a group that new how to work together extremely well. We could survive butt pulls through teamwork. As a healer I knew how long it would take the tank to get over and grab aggro off the hapless DPS. I knew exactly when I could start healing without getting splatted myself. I routinely saw DPS step in and blow cooldowns to control the situation until the tank could get there. I would write them off my healing list, figuring they were doing their job as sacrificial lambs. Often they would surprise me and manage to transfer aggro to the tank without dying, at which point I would heal them.

Being a part of a team that could fluidly transition from circumstance to circumstance and be successful was a real rush. We were good at what we did. It wasn't about having the perfect number, we definitely didn't. It was not about having the perfect spec, we definitely favored specs that served our styles, not the styles of some analyst. We had the ability to incorporate new people into the group to get them gear and experience with the bosses. We were always willing to help build the foundation of another raid group.

If I may coin a phrase, we were "Inclusive Elitists" rather than "Exclusive Elitists". We spread knowledge and experience as far as other people's interest extended. We also participated in RP, RP events, as well as helping with small group farming. I would love to be part of such a team again.

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Sylrah

Sylrah

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PostSubject: Re: Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite.   Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite. I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 28, 2010 9:27 am

I like to tool around in theory to create a dream build for myself, to then try it and stick with it.

Usually looking at the skills I want to focus on and then looking at how to make them work well. So partially min/maxing, but not too seriously.

I made a rogue on a NwN server where I build it around the maximum sneak attack, there were epic levels so I ended up with a 30d6, a high dexterity modifier, dual weilding, serious stealth ability... so a lot of *poke poke* dead before it started fights, but at the same time so physically weak that when noticed I was dead just as fast without doing any real damage.

But that is one of the rare occasions, usually I try to do it in a way to be proficient in a few areas, and above average in one area. Or often exceptional in one area and trying to keep the penalties within acceptable ranges.

Usually just making a theory build and sticking with it. I really don't care much about other people's builds, but their views on skills can be interesting and help in my own theories.


So I won't be a copycat, nor be too min/max focussed.
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HDubNZ

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PostSubject: Re: Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite.   Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite. I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 28, 2010 12:11 pm

I have to say i was fairly casual about this stuff initially but grew more involved as I wanted to be a beneficial team member in raids not a liability. That said I am in no way a zealot of theorycrafting - carrying out multiple parses on test dummies to measure my dps etc...

One of the reasons I left WoW and am looking forward to this is to actually use the RPG part of MMORPG. I want to be the hero and follow my story wherever it takes me - I don't feel like that means to end game learning what talent tree will squeeze out those extra damage points etc...

So I dare say I may not be coming to a raid guild near you hahaha! Not yet anyway!
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HDubNZ

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PostSubject: Re: Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite.   Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite. I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 28, 2010 12:12 pm

HDubNZ wrote:
I have to say i was fairly casual about this stuff initially but grew more involved as I wanted to be a beneficial team member in raids not a liability. That said I am in no way a zealot of theorycrafting - carrying out multiple parses on test dummies to measure my dps etc...

One of the reasons I left WoW and am looking forward to this is to actually use the RPG part of MMORPG. I want to be the hero and follow my story wherever it takes me - I don't feel like that means rushing to end game learning what talent tree will squeeze out those extra damage points etc...

So I dare say I may not be coming to a raid guild near you hahaha! Not yet anyway!
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Godric_Barbarosa

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PostSubject: Re: Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite.   Theorycrafters and analysts of RiG unite. I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 28, 2010 1:36 pm

While I don't believe RP and optimization are mutually exclusive, I think they don't play together in MMO's. With each new patch the optimizing changes. You get the flavor of the month builds (yes I know there have always been timeless builds). I, for one, am not going to completely change my character concept because pf what Bioware has done to further balance in the latest patch. I may tweek my builds based on a patch, but my core character concepts will be independent of build as much as possible.
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