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azarhal

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PostSubject: Re: Possible Forum Layout?   Possible Forum Layout? - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 13, 2011 1:15 am

Not from me.


offtopic:

Ald, did I ever tell you your avatar is awesome?

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Aldemarran

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PostSubject: Re: Possible Forum Layout?   Possible Forum Layout? - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 13, 2011 2:06 am

I've updated page 8 with a first pass at Character Optimization forums. Here's a copy to get the discussion started.
**************************************************************************************
  • Character Optimization = "The place to discuss performance oriented character optimization."
    These forums are for theorycrafting how to obtain the best performance out of each character class.

    Theory Doctors are here to help sort through the discussions and present the best verified, most accepted theories in a readily accessible and understandable format. Like a personal physician, they are here to give you the best advice they have to offer. They also cannot force the reader to do anything. Their singular goal is to provide the reader clear and concise information so that the reader may make an informed decision.

    Character Optimization Moderators enforce the following rules on readers, posters, and Theory Doctors alike:
    THOU SHALT feel free to disagree RESPECTFULLY. (This is the "Respect in Gaming" forum after all. Very Happy)
    THOU SHALT NOT pass judgement on other people's choices.
    THOU SHALT NOT be uncivil in these discussions.


    • Character Optimization: {Class} = "The place to discuss the optimal performance of {Class}."
      This forum is for theorycrafting how to obtain the best performance out of a {Class}. In addition to the typical discussion threads there are several threads that have been sticked for ease of access and reference:
      - - Currently Accepted & Verified Skill Point Configurations (closed thread, maintained by Theory Doctors)
      - - Frequently Asked Questions (closed thread, maintained by Theory Doctors)
      - - Simple Questions & Simple Answers (Open thread, all are welcome to participate. Please limit yourself to questions and answers that require no more than 1 or 2 sentences. "Walls of Text" and other complex questions should be given threads of their own.)

      PLEASE REMEMBER: Character Optimization Moderators enforce the following rules on readers, posters, and Theory Doctors alike:
      THOU SHALT feel free to disagree RESPECTFULLY. (This is the "Respect in Gaming" forum after all. Very Happy)
      THOU SHALT NOT pass judgement on other people's choices.
      THOU SHALT NOT be uncivil in these discussions.


    • Iterate for all classes...


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PostSubject: Re: Possible Forum Layout?   Possible Forum Layout? - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 13, 2011 11:22 am

Aldemarran wrote:

THOU SHALT NOT pass judgement on other people's choices.

I disagree with this. I think people should pass judgement on people's choices. I do think people should be respectful when they pass judgment and give the reasoning behind their judgement.
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azarhal

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PostSubject: Re: Possible Forum Layout?   Possible Forum Layout? - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 13, 2011 11:37 am

Godric_Barbarosa wrote:
Aldemarran wrote:

THOU SHALT NOT pass judgement on other people's choices.

I disagree with this. I think people should pass judgement on people's choices. I do think people should be respectful when they pass judgment and give the reasoning behind their judgement.

Judgement is different from critizing.

Judgement mean that you believe somebody is an idiot because he's rolling a Shadow Hybrid.

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Aldemarran

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PostSubject: Re: Possible Forum Layout?   Possible Forum Layout? - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 13, 2011 12:08 pm

Godric_Barbarosa wrote:
Aldemarran wrote:

THOU SHALT NOT pass judgement on other people's choices.

I disagree with this. I think people should pass judgement on people's choices. I do think people should be respectful when they pass judgment and give the reasoning behind their judgement.

Perhaps I need to work on the terminology then. I was trying to clarify through the dichotomy of these two statements:

THOU SHALT feel free to disagree RESPECTFULLY. (This is the "Respect in Gaming" forum after all. )
THOU SHALT NOT pass judgement on other people's choices.

For example:
Respectfully Disagree = The data we have shows you'll lose 5% DPS if you take Saber Slinger rather than Gloomy Lightning.
Respectfully Disagree = My experience is that if you take Saber Slinger you will lag significantly behind other DPS that took Gloomy Lightning.
Respectfully Disagree = I find it strange that Saber Slinger worked better for you. All the other data we've taken says that it lags significantly behind Gloomy Lightning in damage.
Judgement = Anyone who takes Saber Slinger rather than Gloomy Lightning is an idiot / newb / tard / other pejorative.

Are there any clearer terms, or should I just include the example? Or have I somehow missed your point entirely?

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Aldemarran

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PostSubject: Re: Possible Forum Layout?   Possible Forum Layout? - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 13, 2011 12:14 pm

azarhal wrote:
...
offtopic:

Ald, did I ever tell you your avatar is awesome?

Thanks!

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Aldemarran

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PostSubject: Re: Possible Forum Layout?   Possible Forum Layout? - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 13, 2011 12:19 pm

In thinking it over there is an implicit "judgement" caused just by Theory Doctors choosing what to list as "verified and accepted".

I'm not sure what a better term would be though. The difference between "judgement of known value" and "judgement of the person" has become somewhat blurred in the internet sub-culture.

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azarhal

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PostSubject: Re: Possible Forum Layout?   Possible Forum Layout? - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 13, 2011 12:36 pm

Quote :
THOU SHALT NOT pass judgement on other people's choices.

THOU SHALT NOT insults/dismiss other people's choices.

Maybe?


Well dismiss might not be good either when it come to Theory Doctors.

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PostSubject: Re: Possible Forum Layout?   Possible Forum Layout? - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 13, 2011 12:45 pm

I think it's all well. "passing judgment" for me in this context means "disregard their opinion".

Though if it is not clear for all it should be changed I suppose.

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PostSubject: Re: Possible Forum Layout?   Possible Forum Layout? - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 13, 2011 1:02 pm

Here's what I don't like though: "present the best verified, most accepted theories".

Verified and accepted is what's bothering me indeed. Sounds like the Theory doctors have to approve of something before it can be labeled as such a theory. I'm not quite in love with "theory" here either. "ideas" or something similar would make it more appealing as far as I'm concerned.

I'd go for... "Theory Doctors are here to help sort through the discussions and present the most prevalent ideas in a readily accessible and understandable format."

I'd probably omit the sentence that says they can't force anyone to do anything - that seems so obvious it doesn't need to be included. This is not a guild or something.

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PostSubject: Re: Possible Forum Layout?   Possible Forum Layout? - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 13, 2011 1:04 pm

How did we come to terms on the whole Title/Tag thing for the guild forum? So no additional tags then?

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PostSubject: Re: Possible Forum Layout?   Possible Forum Layout? - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 13, 2011 1:22 pm

Aldemarran wrote:
Character Optimization: {Class} = "The place to discuss the optimal performance of {Class}."
This forum is for theorycrafting how to obtain the best performance out of a {Class}. In addition to the typical discussion threads there are several threads that have been sticked for ease of access and reference:
- - Currently Accepted & Verified Skill Point Configurations (closed thread, maintained by Theory Doctors)
- - Frequently Asked Questions (closed thread, maintained by Theory Doctors)
- - Simple Questions & Simple Answers (Open thread, all are welcome to participate. Please limit yourself to questions and answers that require no more than 1 or 2 sentences. "Walls of Text" and other complex questions should be given threads of their own.)
I underlined the parts that I disagree on.

"the optimal performance"/"the best performance" both seem too "radical" to me. Yes, in the end, that is what it is all about, but it sounds like there is but one way to make this happen and in this forum we're looking for it.
For me it is more about the "find the best configuration that fits your play-style" or something like that, to put it in other words, it's not about finding the best performance for the class, but the best performance that fits your wishes best, or the best performance for a suggested build.
I'd suggest some other wording than what we have now. Maybe "The place to discuss performance optimization of ..." and "This forum is for reasoning about how to improve the performance of your ..."
I added "your" to make it more personal, which is what we are aiming for (not a "one-build-solution") and removed theorycrafting because it is the definition we wanted to avoid in the first place.

The other thing was the Accepted & Verified. As before I'd change this for reasons already mentioned in my post above. Maybe make it "- - Prevailingly accepted builds / talent point configurations" or something.

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Aldemarran

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PostSubject: Re: Possible Forum Layout?   Possible Forum Layout? - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 14, 2011 4:09 am

The objective of the sticky to create a "probably best build" and then offer advice on finding "very good options". This must be built out of the most statistically sound data available, and the consensus of the active, functional community.

Once data is obtained, it is usually pretty clear. Finding someone willing to obtain the data and post-process it...

Consensus is the hard part. There will always be people who lack investigative discipline, and will make one of several errors in determining "the absolute best". The most common of these errors is making a declaration on a small sample of data. If we leave best build selection to a vote it will suffer most from those who vote without properly reviewing the discussion. Hence it becomes the Theory Doctor's job to sort things out and summarize all the theories that have proper support AND consensus behind them.

So to me the question is how to write up the idea that Theory Doctors present not every random theory out there, but rather a set of the best evaluated theories that have a well thought out consensus/agreement behind them?

(Various factors prevented me from having much time this evening to work up alternate wordings. You help is most welcome.)

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Aldemarran

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PostSubject: Re: Possible Forum Layout?   Possible Forum Layout? - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 14, 2011 4:10 am

Grome wrote:
How did we come to terms on the whole Title/Tag thing for the guild forum? So no additional tags then?

I haven't seen alternatives to hardcore and casual yet, but otherwise I'm pretty much ready to write a final explanation. What do you folks think of a Social / Progression paradigm?

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PostSubject: Re: Possible Forum Layout?   Possible Forum Layout? - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 14, 2011 4:47 am

Grome wrote:
Here's what I don't like though: "present the best verified, most accepted theories".

Verified and accepted is what's bothering me indeed. Sounds like the Theory doctors have to approve of something before it can be labeled as such a theory. I'm not quite in love with "theory" here either. "ideas" or something similar would make it more appealing as far as I'm concerned.

I'd go for... "Theory Doctors are here to help sort through the discussions and present the most prevalent ideas in a readily accessible and understandable format."

I'd probably omit the sentence that says they can't force anyone to do anything - that seems so obvious it doesn't need to be included. This is not a guild or something.

There's a weakness in the word "prevalent' in that certain circumstances make weak builds seem "obviously good". Hidden factors such as the hidden internal cooldown on Windfury can make a Fast / Fast build look good if you haven't heard about the cooldown. Another one that slid past people's attention for awhile was the exact effect of weapon normalization on special attacks (normalization impacted the benefit from AP but base weapon speed controlled the amount of damage from the weapon's base DPS, if I recall correctly).

In these sorts of cases lots of "passerby" types comment "Hey, X skill point build is a great idea!" because they don't know about "the secret sauce". This creates a "prevalent theory" that is known to be incorrect.

(Sorry if this all tumbled out a bit chaoticly. Didn't get much time tonight.)

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azarhal

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PostSubject: Re: Possible Forum Layout?   Possible Forum Layout? - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 14, 2011 11:32 am

Aldemarran wrote:
I haven't seen alternatives to hardcore and casual yet, but otherwise I'm pretty much ready to write a final explanation. What do you folks think of a Social / Progression paradigm?

hmmm

Social for "casual" might be a good term.

Progression is a bit generic, although, in a MMO it does mean a specific thing.

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PostSubject: Re: Possible Forum Layout?   Possible Forum Layout? - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 14, 2011 11:47 am

Slept on it, came up with a small refinement:

Guild Focus (optional): You may add the adjective below that best describes your guild.
  • Social
  • Progressive
  • Competitive


Obviously the difference is that "progressive" doesn't apply to PvP as much. I personally think that in-context the meaning should be clear. How do you feel about it?

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PostSubject: Re: Possible Forum Layout?   Possible Forum Layout? - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 14, 2011 12:18 pm

Aldemarran wrote:
Slept on it, came up with a small refinement:

Guild Focus (optional): You may add the adjective below that best describes your guild.
  • Social
  • Progressive
  • Competitive


Obviously the difference is that "progressive" doesn't apply to PvP as much. I personally think that in-context the meaning should be clear. How do you feel about it?
In fact, I think it's not clear enough, even in context. Someone who just got on the site and is seeing thread titles like "Server A [PvE] [Progressive] Guild A" does not immediately understand the meaning of social, progressive and competitive. It's just not anywhere near the immediate understanding of casual and hardcore - although I admit hardcore has a certain unnecessary negative flair.

I think if we have to look for something that is not immediately clear, then there is no reason to put it in the title to begin with.
There's one last thing I'd suggest you consider though, depending on whether you feel "casual" is burdened or not. Forget about the "hardcore". The way I see it, we can make it "casual" and "not casual" instead. In other words, put casual in, if it's casual, if not, just don't add it.
Personally I don't feel casual has any burden to it and feels just right. People will know what it means and people looking for casual will find them, people looking for hardcore will avoid them.

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PostSubject: Re: Possible Forum Layout?   Possible Forum Layout? - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 14, 2011 12:32 pm

Aldemarran wrote:
Grome wrote:
Here's what I don't like though: "present the best verified, most accepted theories".

Verified and accepted is what's bothering me indeed. Sounds like the Theory doctors have to approve of something before it can be labeled as such a theory. I'm not quite in love with "theory" here either. "ideas" or something similar would make it more appealing as far as I'm concerned.

I'd go for... "Theory Doctors are here to help sort through the discussions and present the most prevalent ideas in a readily accessible and understandable format."

I'd probably omit the sentence that says they can't force anyone to do anything - that seems so obvious it doesn't need to be included. This is not a guild or something.

There's a weakness in the word "prevalent' in that certain circumstances make weak builds seem "obviously good". Hidden factors such as the hidden internal cooldown on Windfury can make a Fast / Fast build look good if you haven't heard about the cooldown. Another one that slid past people's attention for awhile was the exact effect of weapon normalization on special attacks (normalization impacted the benefit from AP but base weapon speed controlled the amount of damage from the weapon's base DPS, if I recall correctly).

In these sorts of cases lots of "passerby" types comment "Hey, X skill point build is a great idea!" because they don't know about "the secret sauce". This creates a "prevalent theory" that is known to be incorrect.

(Sorry if this all tumbled out a bit chaoticly. Didn't get much time tonight.)
It's true that "the prevalent" does not equally mean "the best". Quite the opposite sometimes. I was just going by the idea that in the past "the best" (calculated by people who knew their way around) has often become "the prevalent" at some point later.

Maybe there is a better wording for this however.
Here another go: "Theory Doctors are here to help sort through the discussions and present established theories in a readily accessible and understandable format."
It sounds alright to me for now. I removed the "the" to remove the pointing finger from it - it feels like a good move to me.
Also moved "theories" back in, instead of "ideas". Maybe "ideas" is a bit vague after all, but please, if you have an opinion on this...

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PostSubject: Re: Possible Forum Layout?   Possible Forum Layout? - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 14, 2011 12:34 pm

"Theory Doctors are here to help sort through the discussions and present established theories in a readily accessible and understandable format."

This looks pretty solid to me. I'll get back to the other changes tonight.

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PostSubject: Re: Possible Forum Layout?   Possible Forum Layout? - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 14, 2011 12:45 pm

Aldemarran wrote:
The objective of the sticky to create a "probably best build" and then offer advice on finding "very good options". This must be built out of the most statistically sound data available, and the consensus of the active, functional community.

Once data is obtained, it is usually pretty clear. Finding someone willing to obtain the data and post-process it...

Consensus is the hard part. There will always be people who lack investigative discipline, and will make one of several errors in determining "the absolute best". The most common of these errors is making a declaration on a small sample of data. If we leave best build selection to a vote it will suffer most from those who vote without properly reviewing the discussion. Hence it becomes the Theory Doctor's job to sort things out and summarize all the theories that have proper support AND consensus behind them.

So to me the question is how to write up the idea that Theory Doctors present not every random theory out there, but rather a set of the best evaluated theories that have a well thought out consensus/agreement behind them?

(Various factors prevented me from having much time this evening to work up alternate wordings. You help is most welcome.)
Just like I did a second ago, I suggest instead of "Currently Accepted & Verified Skill Point Configurations" "Currently Established Skill Point Configurations".
Established holds for me some of the "verfied by us" without actually rubbing it under your nose, as well as describing the fact it's been accepted.
In this title however I disagree with another thing. "Skill Point Configurations". I think this thread should not be purely for builds, but for all of the "established" information there is relating to each build or even the class as such. Thus, I would name it differently. Maybe something like "Currently Established Builds & Theories".

Also, I never suggested there might need to be a vote about which builds are to be included. I just want to make clear that the Theory Doctor's primary role in this is to write the information down for everybody, not to impose it - which was partly suggested by the first wording.
It has to be kept clear that everyone who wants to take part in the theorycrafting is allowed to. Discussion might be the way to find the optimal build. One alone is never better than a group of people.

I'm also not quite sure what you thought of my replacement of "the best", "the optimal" and "theorycrafting".

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PostSubject: Re: Possible Forum Layout?   Possible Forum Layout? - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 14, 2011 12:52 pm

Grome, those are completely fair statements and I apologize for not having taken the time to make my thought process clearer. I am on my way out the door to work but the short story is that I probably didn't read your posts as thoroughly as I should have. I was sidetracking on alternatives to achieving consensus because I was worrying about loosing what being a Theory Doctor meant in all the word-smithing to achieve tactfulness.

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PostSubject: Re: Possible Forum Layout?   Possible Forum Layout? - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 14, 2011 12:58 pm

Aldemarran wrote:
Grome, those are completely fair statements and I apologize for not having taken the time to make my thought process clearer. I am on my way out the door to work but the short story is that I probably didn't read your posts as thoroughly as I should have. I was sidetracking on alternatives to achieving consensus because I was worrying about loosing what being a Theory Doctor meant in all the word-smithing to achieve tactfulness.
Let's get back to the whole thing as soon as you feel ready then.

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PostSubject: Re: Possible Forum Layout?   Possible Forum Layout? - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 14, 2011 3:08 pm

Aldemarran wrote:
Slept on it, came up with a small refinement:

Guild Focus (optional): You may add the adjective below that best describes your guild.
  • Social
  • Progressive
  • Competitive


Obviously the difference is that "progressive" doesn't apply to PvP as much. I personally think that in-context the meaning should be clear. How do you feel about it?

I think this is soft-stepping around for the sake of political correctness. If this is what you mean just use something like this.

Guild Focus (optional): You may add the adjective below that best describes your guild.
  • Social
  • Raiding Progression
  • Competitive PvP


If that isn't what you mean then I just proved it isn't clear.
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Aldemarran

Aldemarran

Posts : 365
Join date : 2010-11-13
Location : Phoenix, AZ

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Possible Forum Layout? - Page 11 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Possible Forum Layout?   Possible Forum Layout? - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 15, 2011 1:15 am

Godric_Barbarosa wrote:
...
I think this is soft-stepping around for the sake of political correctness. If this is what you mean just use something like this.
...

They are going into a title, they need to be short. Hence I cut them down to one (hopefully) readily identifiable word. As these are the buzz words themselves (Raiding and PvP wouldn't seem to be buzz words) I didn't believe I was tap dancing around anything. Apologies if I have offended.

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PostSubject: Re: Possible Forum Layout?   Possible Forum Layout? - Page 11 I_icon_minitime

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