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Grome
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PostSubject: Who shall provide structure & initiative?   Who shall provide structure & initiative? I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 02, 2010 3:54 pm

Credits to Aldemarran.

This is a topic that got started in the Senate thread before being Grome-kicked out of there by Ald to make it an own thread.

See last page for current status of thought.

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PostSubject: Re: Who shall provide structure & initiative?   Who shall provide structure & initiative? I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 02, 2010 6:08 pm

The subject is a bit to advanced for the moment.

Issues you have to have cleared up before you take this one into consideration are:

1. Who is playing what and where? - which guilds are playing on what server(PvP/RP/EU/US/GER/FRA) and which side
2. Considering PvP will be sort of WAR type - Are guilds on same side Organised enough and allied? Because without a real force behind on both sides you cannot make a server wide event.

Once you have the above than you can have propositions of event leaders from the guilds participating as they know their ppl and what qualities they have.

Those event leaders will decide what/where/how in terms of initiative!

The alliances/guilds will have to convene on the structure they see fit!

Yours,
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PostSubject: Re: Who shall provide structure & initiative?   Who shall provide structure & initiative? I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 02, 2010 10:18 pm

KDS - Prometeu wrote:
1. Who is playing what and where? - which guilds are playing on what server(PvP/RP/EU/US/GER/FRA) and which side
2. Considering PvP will be sort of WAR type - Are guilds on same side Organised enough and allied? Because without a real force behind on both sides you cannot make a server wide event.
We are counting on a heavily forum based communication (almost all communication to take place in the forums).

You are basing this on the guilds while I am not. I think this kind of thing should not be based on guild representatives. Communication will be needed with the guilds but that will all go through the forums.
That's why I see no reason to have to orientate our structure in dependence of the guilds.

The task of these mentioned "managers", or call them whatever you want, would in fact be to ensure that communication and coordination between all parties works smoothly.

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PostSubject: Re: Who shall provide structure & initiative?   Who shall provide structure & initiative? I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 02, 2010 10:39 pm

Well, It can be both Guild representative, and , individual player representative. To organize all of the RiG players be it PvP, PvE, etc, we need to first clarify just what we plan on doing about the server situation. Beings theres no definitive server info dropping at the moment, its kind of redundant that we wait til the server info is made available, then act on just wat to do about it. I agree we can start setting up a situation of "what to do" when we find out, but its still "over the horizon" in my humble opinion...

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PostSubject: Re: Who shall provide structure & initiative?   Who shall provide structure & initiative? I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 02, 2010 10:46 pm

Schwendo wrote:
Well, It can be both Guild representative, and , individual player representative. To organize all of the RiG players be it PvP, PvE, etc, we need to first clarify just what we plan on doing about the server situation. Beings theres no definitive server info dropping at the moment, its kind of redundant that we wait til the server info is made available, then act on just wat to do about it. I agree we can start setting up a situation of "what to do" when we find out, but its still "over the horizon" in my humble opinion...
Mmmh, okay I see both you guys' points. However I think server decision does not change this? Where would be the difficulty of just applying what we discuss to two servers instead of one? (or whatever it turns out to be)

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PostSubject: Re: Who shall provide structure & initiative?   Who shall provide structure & initiative? I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 02, 2010 11:01 pm

No problem at all, but, there will still be some confusion over "who is going where". I dunno, I don't want to be "over-analytical" or anything. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Who shall provide structure & initiative?   Who shall provide structure & initiative? I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 02, 2010 11:03 pm

Schwendo wrote:
No problem at all, but, there will still be some confusion over "who is going where". I dunno, I don't want to be "over-analytical" or anything. Wink
Yes, definitely. But I am not suggesting we already decide on who does what task - I am just breaking down the system.
That way the "who goes where" would have nothing to do with this Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Who shall provide structure & initiative?   Who shall provide structure & initiative? I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 02, 2010 11:13 pm

Grome wrote:
I am just breaking down the system.

Look what you did here.


and we can't really decided who is going where until BioWare release server information.

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PostSubject: Re: Who shall provide structure & initiative?   Who shall provide structure & initiative? I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 02, 2010 11:15 pm

azarhal wrote:
and we can't really decided who is going where until BioWare release server information.
Like I said - we can still already break down the system (:p) to what we thing makes most sense.

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PostSubject: Re: Who shall provide structure & initiative?   Who shall provide structure & initiative? I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 02, 2010 11:25 pm

I feel like I keep advocating state's rights here Laughing, but here's my take on it: I believe this sort of organization should be left up to the guilds for the most part.

Now, I could see the need for a Coordinator for such things, but I see that position as a facilitator to the guilds. Perhaps someone who manages the overall event calander by being the point of contact for guilds looking to post their events to the community. Even then, I'm not too sure what an intermediary would be able to accomplish that an event posting on an organized forum couldn't.
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PostSubject: Re: Who shall provide structure & initiative?   Who shall provide structure & initiative? I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 02, 2010 11:36 pm

Variable wrote:
I feel like I keep advocating state's rights here Laughing, but here's my take on it: I believe this sort of organization should be left up to the guilds for the most part.

Now, I could see the need for a Coordinator for such things, but I see that position as a facilitator to the guilds. Perhaps someone who manages the overall event calander by being the point of contact for guilds looking to post their events to the community. Even then, I'm not too sure what an intermediary would be able to accomplish that an event posting on an organized forum couldn't.
I disagree in the point that guilds will be the ones initiating the events. The way I see it, it would probably go on much like now: A bunch of people all posting ideas etc and coming to a common denominator. And since there might then be multiple discussions going at once there is a need to coordinate the people who take the lead of each project (whoever it may be). Thus these coordinators facilitate the whole planning, yes. And yes, it's not that big and complex a task. I suggest this position be mingled with the moderator role within the forums for the respective forums.
As I said, this position would just be there to make sure everything goes smoothly, sort of an "invisible hand" that jumps in if and when needed.

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PostSubject: Re: Who shall provide structure & initiative?   Who shall provide structure & initiative? I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 02, 2010 11:41 pm

Man, Grome you got serious on this one! I love the passion, though. Were talking just about organizational stuff. I think Vari' has a valid point. But, here's where it can go in a nice direction to make everyone happy. Smile

Ty, Selv, and Guild leaders can meet up, and organize In-game events without much difficulty. The Guild leaders could then delegate the events to their perspective guilds. Much simpler than trying to organize 150-300 people all together. Vari' is correct. Its almost like the states the in the US. They all have their individual gov'ts, but work with the federal (RiG) government...Like I said, I think we can get this done with little pain on any side. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Who shall provide structure & initiative?   Who shall provide structure & initiative? I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 02, 2010 11:45 pm

I don't see the issue with multiple discussions going on about events though; especially with the forum reorganization that is being discussed. Each event gets a topic, and the information format for that topic will be stickied (as discussed in the other thread). The guilds are ultimately responsible for their own events in my eyes, and any coordination through the RiG is meant to incorporate the greater community - but ultimately it is the sponsor guild is who is mobilizing the event.

Now, as far as getting it to the calander so that the greater community can see that it is coming up, thats where I think the Coordinator comes in, but that feels like more of a moderator job than any kind of actual management.
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PostSubject: Re: Who shall provide structure & initiative?   Who shall provide structure & initiative? I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 02, 2010 11:50 pm

(agrees with Variable)

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PostSubject: Re: Who shall provide structure & initiative?   Who shall provide structure & initiative? I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 02, 2010 11:51 pm

Schwendo wrote:
Man, Grome you got serious on this one! I love the passion, though. Were talking just about organizational stuff. I think Vari' has a valid point. But, here's where it can go in a nice direction to make everyone happy. Smile

Ty, Selv, and Guild leaders can meet up, and organize In-game events without much difficulty. The Guild leaders could then delegate the events to their perspective guilds. Much simpler than trying to organize 150-300 people all together. Vari' is correct. Its almost like the states the in the US. They all have their individual gov'ts, but work with the federal (RiG) government...Like I said, I think we can get this done with little pain on any side. Smile
Yes, indeed, you are right - we WILL have to get together with the guild leaders for events and such if we want to create something big. What you suggest here is fine, though I don't know why Selv and Ty should be doing that. Unfortunately we can't expect them to do everything for us :-(
Here's where these coordinators I keep talking about come in! They take the organizers of an event aside (whoever that may be) and sees them through the difficulty of getting with all the guild leaders to get it right.
What I think we all have a misunderstanding about here is who the separate event organizers will be? That's not what I have been talking about so far. That needs to be addressed as well, though I think it can work as I explained earlier: someone posts an event idea, it is then discussed and at some point, when the idea is good and ready someone will take the role of "organizer" for this event (or multiple people). Please discuss this point too if you have your opinions (I don't think it will be up to the guilds, they only really come in at the execution of the event)!

Please excuse my being serious/stubborn - it is just that I am very tired and currently simply putting whatever thoughts come out of my head on the keyboard :-)

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PostSubject: Re: Who shall provide structure & initiative?   Who shall provide structure & initiative? I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 02, 2010 11:57 pm

Variable wrote:
I don't see the issue with multiple discussions going on about events though; especially with the forum reorganization that is being discussed. Each event gets a topic, and the information format for that topic will be stickied (as discussed in the other thread). The guilds are ultimately responsible for their own events in my eyes, and any coordination through the RiG is meant to incorporate the greater community - but ultimately it is the sponsor guild is who is mobilizing the event.

Now, as far as getting it to the calander so that the greater community can see that it is coming up, thats where I think the Coordinator comes in, but that feels like more of a moderator job than any kind of actual management.
You are misunderstanding my understanding of how events will be created.

Your thought on how events will get in this forum is that a guild has an event planned and puts it in this forum.

Mine however is that people put their ideas out there (regardless of guild or affiliation), much like now, and then it gets discussed and developed.

Yes, there will certainly also be guild-initiated events but I don't see why we would only expect to see that? (I think it's quite the opposite)

Also, I was not suggesting there would be multiple threads for one single event. I was saying there will be multiple event planning discussions going on all over the event forums that need to be taken into consideration. Mr. A who is planning a PvP event might not be aware that Ms. B is planning a PvE event on a same date / same direction (or sthing like that).
That is what I meant.

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PostSubject: Re: Who shall provide structure & initiative?   Who shall provide structure & initiative? I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 03, 2010 12:08 am

Grome wrote:
Yes, indeed, you are right - we WILL have to get together with the guild leaders for events and such if we want to create something big. What you suggest here is fine, though I don't know why Selv and Ty should be doing that. Unfortunately we can't expect them to do everything for us :-(
Here's where these coordinators I keep talking about come in! They take the organizers of an event aside (whoever that may be) and sees them through the difficulty of getting with all the guild leaders to get it right.
What I think we all have a misunderstanding about here is who the separate event organizers will be? That's not what I have been talking about so far. That needs to be addressed as well, though I think it can work as I explained earlier: someone posts an event idea, it is then discussed and at some point, when the idea is good and ready someone will take the role of "organizer" for this event (or multiple people). Please discuss this point too if you have your opinions (I don't think it will be up to the guilds, they only really come in at the execution of the event)!

Please excuse my being serious/stubborn - it is just that I am very tired and currently simply putting whatever thoughts come out of my head on the keyboard :-)

S'all good, Grome. I'm enjoying the back and forth - intelligent and civil, exactly what we're about here Smile

The problem I have is that I feel this takes the event too far out of the hands of the guilds. If I'm a guild leader, and I want to open up an event to the community, then I am going to be reluctant to just hand over the reins to some coordinator. I want to mix with the greater community, but maybe I'm doing this to also recruit other people into the guild. As such, I would want to plan and execute the event in house and then present it to the community to join in. Possible recruits get a feel for how the guild is run that way, and we all get to enjoy the event as a community in the process. Whether the guild event is a success or failure is up to the guild, not the community facilitators.

And as to it all being on Sel and Ty's shoulders - I agree, but it was my understanding Sel was looking for some more moderator lackys to help out with the expanded workload that is being discussed.
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PostSubject: Re: Who shall provide structure & initiative?   Who shall provide structure & initiative? I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 03, 2010 12:11 am

Sorry again if I seem shortsighted tonight, I will certainly take another look at this tomorrow.

Vari, the way I get it, you are insisting there needs to be a "sponsor guild" for an event. Why so? The way I see it, many events could be "sponsored" and initiated by RiG essentially regrouping an organizing team that may be composed of members of RiG, regardless of guild/affiliation.

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PostSubject: Re: Who shall provide structure & initiative?   Who shall provide structure & initiative? I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 03, 2010 12:15 am

Grome wrote:
You are misunderstanding my understanding of how events will be created.

Your thought on how events will get in this forum is that a guild has an event planned and puts it in this forum.

Mine however is that people put their ideas out there (regardless of guild or affiliation), much like now, and then it gets discussed and developed.

Yes, there will certainly also be guild-initiated events but I don't see why we would only expect to see that? (I think it's quite the opposite)

Also, I was not suggesting there would be multiple threads for one single event. I was saying there will be multiple event planning discussions going on all over the event forums that need to be taken into consideration. Mr. A who is planning a PvP event might not be aware that Ms. B is planning a PvE event on a same date / same direction (or sthing like that).
That is what I meant.

OK, I'm groking your point of view now Very Happy. I don't expect the majority of events to come from single community members, but we should support that when it comes up. I still believe a single thread will handle most of the planning, and as far as coordinators go I envision most assistance coming from the community as a whole, much like we garner ideas in the RiG forums now. I suppose the moderator who handles the calander scheduling should also be willing to help these types of single person originated events, but I expect you'll see a lot of volunteerism.
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PostSubject: Re: Who shall provide structure & initiative?   Who shall provide structure & initiative? I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 03, 2010 12:20 am

Variable wrote:
OK, I'm groking your point of view now Very Happy. I don't expect the majority of events to come from single community members, but we should support that when it comes up. I still believe a single thread will handle most of the planning, and as far as coordinators go I envision most assistance coming from the community as a whole, much like we garner ideas in the RiG forums now. I suppose the moderator who handles the calander scheduling should also be willing to help these types of single person originated events, but I expect you'll see a lot of volunteerism.
Great Smile
Anyway, what I see happening is actually that people just kick out ideas they have and hope it evolves into something that can be used - and then who is to take the lead? Certainly not that single person that kicked off the idea. I think for that you would indeed need volunteers (shouldn't be a problem).
And for the coordination of these independent organizer groups and also the guild dependent organizer groups you mentioned, I just think a coordinator would be nice to bring all the people together and help work it out if required (bring together: orga teams with guild leaders or other orga teams mostly).
So, yes, it would end up to be not that much more than a forum moderator, and that is also my point I guess. Coordinator = moderator with a little bit of extra task.

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PostSubject: Re: Who shall provide structure & initiative?   Who shall provide structure & initiative? I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 03, 2010 12:22 am

Grome wrote:
Sorry again if I seem shortsighted tonight, I will certainly take another look at this tomorrow.

Vari, the way I get it, you are insisting there needs to be a "sponsor guild" for an event. Why so? The way I see it, many events could be "sponsored" and initiated by RiG essentially regrouping an organizing team that may be composed of members of RiG, regardless of guild/affiliation.

I believe this way because I see most of the orginization and resource/people management coming from the guilds. If you start organizing RiG into anything other than a facilitator for the guilds (RiG sponsored events, etc.) then RiG starts to take on the aspect of a guild itself. I definitely concede that we may see organization come from single parties, but any talk of molding or getting the event "right" makes me nervious.
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PostSubject: Re: Who shall provide structure & initiative?   Who shall provide structure & initiative? I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 03, 2010 12:27 am

Grome wrote:
Great Smile
Anyway, what I see happening is actually that people just kick out ideas they have and hope it evolves into something that can be used - and then who is to take the lead? Certainly not that single person that kicked off the idea. I think for that you would indeed need volunteers (shouldn't be a problem).
And for the coordination of these independent organizer groups and also the guild dependent organizer groups you mentioned, I just think a coordinator would be nice to bring all the people together and help work it out if required (bring together: orga teams with guild leaders or other orga teams mostly).
So, yes, it would end up to be not that much more than a forum moderator, and that is also my point I guess. Coordinator = moderator with a little bit of extra task.

And why not the person who had the idea? Which I guess is the sticking point I keep having. In my mind, if someone has an idea for an event and is looking for the community's input, why would someone else assume to take control just because the originator asked for input?
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PostSubject: Re: Who shall provide structure & initiative?   Who shall provide structure & initiative? I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 03, 2010 12:34 am

Variable wrote:
And why not the person who had the idea? Which I guess is the sticking point I keep having. In my mind, if someone has an idea for an event and is looking for the community's input, why would someone else assume to take control just because the originator asked for input?
I see your fears there and I would not want them realized either.

What I meant here by "certainly not the one that came up with it" is that he may not want to do it or not want to do it alone. It is of course still up to him whether he takes the lead or not. I was just envisaging a scenario where the one with the idea actually is not interested in executing it but only wants to put it out there for the community. Admittedly, I chose my words badly.

I also am not suggesting we (i.e. the coordinators) make any impact in how the events are finally going to be done. They are indeed just facilitators and if I made that come out differently then I would like to apologize. They offer their connections to all the guild leaders and support the communication between all involved parties, if needed.

I see your concern of RiG turning into too much of a guild - That is not what I want, but I still think we should be able to create RiG initiated events. Don't you think?

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PostSubject: Re: Who shall provide structure & initiative?   Who shall provide structure & initiative? I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 03, 2010 12:50 am

Admittedly, I'm a tad (read: a lot) protective of guild structure try to be very careful when it comes to stepping on the intentions of others, and appologize for my stubbornness as well.

As for RiG sponsored events, why not set it up to where those single person initiated events that are born as a community collaboration be the RiG events? You let the person who birthed it take the lead, but if the community as a whole (rather than an organized guild) is putting their heads together to make it happen, then that is an effort from everyone in RiG.
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Grome
Massively Subtle
Grome

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Join date : 2010-11-15
Age : 30
Location : Geneva, Switzerland

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Who shall provide structure & initiative? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who shall provide structure & initiative?   Who shall provide structure & initiative? I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 03, 2010 12:57 am

Variable wrote:
As for RiG sponsored events, why not set it up to where those single person initiated events that are born as a community collaboration be the RiG events? You let the person who birthed it take the lead, but if the community as a whole (rather than an organized guild) is putting their heads together to make it happen, then that is an effort from everyone in RiG.
Pretty much what I meant Smile

So after all we do agree :3

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Who shall provide structure & initiative? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Who shall provide structure & initiative?   Who shall provide structure & initiative? I_icon_minitime

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