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Darka

Darka

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PostSubject: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 12, 2010 4:34 am

Since we have all agreed that there is effort needed, and general respect is a good thing I would like to talk about the other side of it.
WE are gamers, we have lives, we can and do get busy, while we agree to help each other and things like that, often not dropping what we do and running to assist is seen as a bad thing. Help comes ina variety of forums, not just physical man work. Advice, guides, links are all able to work just aswell.

With respect we are generally more mindful of what our actions and words do, however we still need to be tough. We need to ignore things that you would normally take offence too, if no one is listening then no one will be speaking. Only in a MMO will we be offended by a comment some random person we never met or ever will do, but if it was out of game and someone made the same comment we would not take offence and think they were an idiot and forget about it soon after.

We will still encounter the negative, but how we react to it can go a long way. Our reactions show who we are, if we flip out and start getting angry with them then we have just started to lose the hard work we have put so much into, If we ignore them, then that is a powerful tool.
Being tougher, having a thick skin is also needed, a Community is made up of all different parts, while we may all want the same thing we may not all feel what is the best way to go about achieving it. We can preach tolerance and respect, but we ourselves also need to toughen up a bit, not over react as much as we normally would

Just something small to think about, its kind of another view to the argument for a better Community, one i think we often over look in favour of our actions, but our reactions are just as important

Smile
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Kai-Sun
Crackers Don't Matter
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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 12, 2010 4:32 pm

Well said Darka.

One thing that I believe will help in this is how supportive everyone is, in case we run into something that might bother us or someone who is deliberately trying to get a rise out of us.

We cannot stoop to the level of people who act childish, for they will beat us with experience.

Try to keep an eye out on your fellow community members and in game community, and lend support in any way possible, be it an ear or to let them know they're walking into a trap! /Ackbar!

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Schwendo

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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 12, 2010 4:47 pm

Yeppers, I agree 100%...

If everyone looks out for each other, then, the voices of the many outweigh the voices of the few (or even one).

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Gamewiz

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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 12, 2010 5:30 pm

Kai-Sun wrote:
Well said Darka.

One thing that I believe will help in this is how supportive everyone is, in case we run into something that might bother us or someone who is deliberately trying to get a rise out of us.

We cannot stoop to the level of people who act childish, for they will beat us with experience.

Try to keep an eye out on your fellow community members and in game community, and lend support in any way possible, be it an ear or to let them know they're walking into a trap! /Ackbar!


I agree with both you and Darka. It's easy to fall trap into a Troll's lair, but if you have someone else helping to watch out with you, it'll make it much easier to just ignore them and move on. Smile
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Selven
The Old Bat
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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 12, 2010 6:24 pm

We could just call on this guy!



I agree with Darka, btw.

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SandsS

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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 12, 2010 7:41 pm

Troll-hunter is win. And yes, I think we can all manage to be reasonable without letting personal remarks get under our skin. I've been a little surprised at how few trolls we've attracted so far, but I've no desire to jinx us.
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Variable
That Handsome Devil
Variable

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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 12, 2010 9:49 pm

This really reminds me of a turning point during my technical training when I was in the Air Force. First off, for anyone who hasn't been in the military or isn't aware, it can be fairly brutal; especially if you're the type of person that takes things to heart. Essentially, its survival of the fittest. If you show that a certain comment made an effect on you, then you are decended upon and heckled mercilessly. Obviously, there were varying degrees of this practice, the work still got done without anyone actually bursting into tears, but to an outsider's viewpoint, its pretty dog-eat-dog.

With that bit of explanation out of the way, there was an airman in my class that I can only describe as the physical embodiment of an internet troll. The kind of guy you just look at and say, "Christ, what an asshole." For the first few weeks of our training he started testing the waters, poking fun at everyone in turn and gauging reactions. Eventually, my turn came one morning as we awaited the instructor. I don't remember exactly what he said, but I remember feeling my face flush and clinching my fists. I'm not easy to rile, but I already didn't like the guy because of his sport at the expense of everyone around him. It must have been a real zinger because the entire class stopped to see how I would react. The expression on his face I will never forget because he seemed to wait in silent and pleasured antisipation for my reaction. He was daring me to get mad.

Instead of getting mad, I called him on it. "Are you daring me to get pissed at you," I asked. To which he responded by laughing his ass off. After that, we were cool. I'm not sure if it was that he realized I wasn't dumb enough to play into his little game and would therefore never be quite as satisfying a target as those few that reacted everytime. We wound up being pretty good friends throughout tech school, even though I would still classify him (then and now) as an asshole. We would still give each other a good razzing, as friends do, but I was able to tell him to lay off the trash talk without reprisal if I wasn't in the mood for it.

I've gotten to the end of this without much of a point, I know, but this topic really brought this memory back. I suppose if there is a moral, its that people like this are looking for a negative reaction, so don't give them the satisfaction. Check your anger, toughen up, and consider the source.
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Schwendo

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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 13, 2010 6:48 am

Here's a great actual example...

(Page 54. of the Old Schoolers Thread on the main SWToR Forums):

AngrYdog: (guess the capital "Y" is L33T or something?)

"this is the most horrible posting i ever saw...

bulding an oldschool community lol.....

who you think you are`? and who says you are old school?
"


and then, more enlightenment...

AngrYdog: (aa-gain)

"well yes...pls dont forget to tell in forums wich server you "old schools" go...

so i can make sure im joining another one... "


An excellent case to study, eh'?

A.)Why did he post this?:

In my humble opinion, he just was trying to make people mad, also, to make himself look dumb in the process. I believe he failed in the former, and, succeeded in the latter...

B.)How was the response from the regular RiG posting gang?:

In my, also humble, opinion...The response by us was perfect. No one flipped out, and, most just made light that he was a young immature player, who, could barely grasp the English language, much less, lock horns mentally with 5-10 people of greater intelligence. I think we knew he would not fire back...how can he? I think his mom prolly needed the computer back, and, sent him to do his cursive homework, or something...teehee Wink


Summary: I believe this is a very small version of some future in-game altercations...I think, once we have like 150-200 players in constant contact, we can isolate these knuckleheads. The "Blacklist" is another way to put a muzzle on these "griefer/ whiner" types. Once they insult one person...boom..150-200 players on the server know who they are, and, no more groups/ gear / loot / items / sales...etc...A VERY powerful tool, eh'?

(Forrest): "Thats all I got to say a-bout that-t-t-t"

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Thick Skinned and Toughening Up Rigbycrazies2
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Selven
The Old Bat
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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 13, 2010 2:30 pm

Hehehe, I felt like a 1st grade teacher when I replied to him. I had fun Wink

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Horeon
(Re)Public Enemy
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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 13, 2010 5:41 pm

As much as I like your thread, well, heck... my Appearance-tab thread lives on trolls! I have to feed them Razz
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Selven
The Old Bat
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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 13, 2010 5:46 pm

Horeon wrote:
As much as I like your thread, well, heck... my Appearance-tab thread lives on trolls! I have to feed them Razz

Just don't feed them too regularly. Make them hunger from time to time Wink

That thread will never die, neva!


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SandsS

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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 13, 2010 5:51 pm

At this point it might be a good idea to remember that the point of any community isn't the isolation of others, but the gradual inclusion of all and sundry. "Blacklisting" tends to be a generally inappropriate action. Although I've no doubt we'll encounter griefers and people who like to whine, the point of the community is to have other reasonable people to play with when that happens.

Building a reasonable, respectful group is just about trying to get a bunch of those people playing together, and a way for them to network in an avowedly positive setting. We won't need to blacklist anyone for them to have a more difficult time than people who are in the R.i.G. community. The reason I believe in this experiment is that we're trying to gather a lot of friendly people together (possible), not merely keep the "bad" elements out (impossible, and morally questionable).


Last edited by SandsS on Sat Nov 13, 2010 5:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Kai-Sun
Crackers Don't Matter
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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 13, 2010 5:52 pm

Can I give the appearance of trolling in the appearance-tab thread?
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azarhal

azarhal

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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 13, 2010 8:39 pm

SandsS wrote:
At this point it might be a good idea to remember that the point of any community isn't the isolation of others, but the gradual inclusion of all and sundry. "Blacklisting" tends to be a generally inappropriate action. Although I've no doubt we'll encounter griefers and people who like to whine, the point of the community is to have other reasonable people to play with when that happens.

Building a reasonable, respectful group is just about trying to get a bunch of those people playing together, and a way for them to network in an avowedly positive setting. We won't need to blacklist anyone for them to have a more difficult time than people who are in the R.i.G. community. The reason I believe in this experiment is that we're trying to gather a lot of friendly people together (possible), not merely keep the "bad" elements out (impossible, and morally questionable).

A "blacklist" is needed to share experience with problematic players. Doesn't mean they should be shunned, simply that others should be cautious when dealing with them. Who knows, maybe some of them could be "converted" once they get educated on social interactions. At least, that's how I see it. I guess we could call it the "In progress" list as opposed to the "blacklist".

Also, players will never feel accountable for their actions without them having a negative impact. It's the basic of learning: trial and errors. We want to convey the message that griefing is an error without humiliating or over admonishing them. Otherwise it usually just cause more griefing and feuding, bitterness and all the online drama that goes with it.

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Baelyrn

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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 13, 2010 9:30 pm

I used to get very upset whenever someone would come and 'steal' my herbs, ores, quest items, whatever. Sometimes I would even try to do the same to them and steal back what they took from me, so to speak.

But after a while I just started thinking, what good does it really do me. Wouldn't it just be easier to shrug it off and continue on my way. And when I took a different attitude, I noticed it wasn't that difficult to ignore it. And I didn't have to get upset at all. If they were my own faction, I sometimes whispered them what they did was rude, just incase they didn't understand it. Usually the answer I got back was:"everyone else does it."

But of course that's not the truth, they just don't notice when someone doesn't do so.
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Darka

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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 14, 2010 6:28 am

Sometimes people think you are raging when in fact your laughing at them
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SandsS

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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 14, 2010 7:30 pm

Having a "list" of any kind bothers me. I'd never want to find my name on one, for example. I support a "whitelist" where we thank people for the good things they've done, but I can't bring myself to speak in favor of any negative or 'warning' list.

About the only time I've found that kind of "warning" defensible or necessary is when there's someone in the community who's wholly bent on defrauding and preying upon other people. "That jerk" doesn't usually make the cut.
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azarhal

azarhal

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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 14, 2010 8:10 pm

Agree that a "list" should be only about "that jerk" type of players, but like I said it's always more about advising caution then "blacklisting".

MMO are like a box of chocalates, you never know what you're gonna get and not everybody have the same tastes.

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Coldhart

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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 15, 2010 7:56 am

Well, guess I'll post my response. Probably going to upset a few.

I feel a list..."Blacklist"...is almost needed in any gaming community. Think about it for a minute. IRL if someone breaks the rules or does something wrong, they are punished, I.E. through the court system with sitations, probation and/or jail time. Without some form of punishment, crime would skyrocket.

I look at life in-game the same way. That's why the designers implemented a way to "Ignore" in-game players. I know a few have posted mentioning the fact that they would never want to be put on such a list. Well, honestly, when you respect others, you will more than likely never be put on such a list. Again it goes back to crime and punishment. It's one thing if you think someone is kill stealing or stealing your mining nodes, but if you send them a tell and they respond negatively and especially if it worsens after you try to talk to them, them IMO some sort of action needs to be taken.

We as a guild have even had our officers, in the past, get the name of the player and their guild tag and then contact an officer of that player's guild and discuss the matter with them. If they were a respectable guild, they would take action to ensure that it didn't happen again.

But getting back to the "list"...the nice thing about an in-game "ignore" list is that you can also take people off the list if the matter is resolved.

Same as a posted blacklist or "cautionary" list on a website. You can let your friends know that there was a problem with a certain player and basicaly "play at your own risk". If that specific player then proves himself later in time, they can then be removed from the list.

When you have a large and tight community and a ton of people know of someone's bad reputation, that player begins to realize how hard it is to get a group because noone want's to asociate with them. With this in place, people realize what can happen and it helps keep them in line.

Sorry if I rocked the boat...just expressing my opinion.

Without repercussions there is no authority...without authority there is only complete and utter chaos.


Wow, I got serious there for a minute...I must be tired. Time for bed.
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Schwendo

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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 15, 2010 1:16 pm

Hehe, Cold...serious...heheheheheehehe

Naw Seriously, I agree with Cold. I would never abuse a "bad player" list, just use it to warn others...It would'nt a difference of opinion. or even a minor altercation. I am talking about major stuff...

*Spammers

*Griefers

*Loot Theives

*Users

*Basically habitual rude/ mean/ shady/ obtrusive players (repeatedly)

This goes back to my "Stength in numbers"...

Lets say Kai (well, you ARE the Guinea pig now) has someone harrassing him at a cantina...He sends me a msg saying.."Hey, this guy is getting on my nerves"....We grab a bunch of players, head down there to investigate. Sure as hell, he is, and does'nt stop when 10 other players come to "discuss" it with him. What happens next? A number of things can...This player needs a weapon...but now cant find anyone to sell it to him....this player needs group help for something...but now he cant get in a group....hmm...maybe I oughta play a little nicer...lesson learned...

I don't think of that as a bad was to handle a "problem child"...

do you??

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Kai-Sun
Crackers Don't Matter
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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 15, 2010 1:41 pm

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Schwendo

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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 15, 2010 1:47 pm

Roflmao!!! Classic!

Thats going to be my "Coon and Friends (South Park)" Superhero!!

Common Sense!!

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Thick Skinned and Toughening Up Rigbycrazies2
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azarhal

azarhal

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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 15, 2010 11:11 pm

Deapool is not somebody with a lot of common sense. In fact, I'm pretty sure that Wade is crazy.

Also, nice post ColdHart.

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Kai-Sun
Crackers Don't Matter
Kai-Sun

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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 15, 2010 11:38 pm

azarhal wrote:
Deapool is not somebody with a lot of common sense. In fact, I'm pretty sure that Wade is crazy.

Makes the picture that much better.

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Grome
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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 16, 2010 12:12 am

Shutting players out completely is obviously not the aim here. It can be a very powerful tool though to have everyone know about someone's bad behaviors. And it is true: usually people learn the lesson when suddenly they have 10% of the server not trading/not grouping up with them.

The problem I often had in MMOs was that everyone was pretty much anonymous, no matter what he did. Maybe some guys had a bad reputation within a couple of guilds but the majority would never even find out or know about that person... until they end up in a group and he suddenly ninjaloots the last boss and takes off.

That can be avoided if the community is strong and connected. You kind of need a blacklist type of thing for that... the extent of it has to be discussed of course.
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