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Darka

Darka

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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 16, 2010 5:48 am

I find players soon enough know who the server tools are anyway
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Havenae

Havenae

Posts : 14
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Age : 40
Location : Mesa, AZ

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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 16, 2010 2:10 pm

Schwendo wrote:
Here's a great actual example...

(Page 54. of the Old Schoolers Thread on the main SWToR Forums):

AngrYdog: (guess the capital "Y" is L33T or something?)

"this is the most horrible posting i ever saw...

bulding an oldschool community lol.....

who you think you are`? and who says you are old school?
"


and then, more enlightenment...

AngrYdog: (aa-gain)

"well yes...pls dont forget to tell in forums wich server you "old schools" go...

so i can make sure im joining another one... "


An excellent case to study, eh'?

A.)Why did he post this?:

In my humble opinion, he just was trying to make people mad, also, to make himself look dumb in the process. I believe he failed in the former, and, succeeded in the latter...

Some of that might be that apparently "old schoolers" are somehow seen as elitists? I dunno that's the vibe I've gotten from a few people. Which could probably be the furthest thing from the truth. and elitist is usually pretty rude, unwilling to help others and stubborn in thinking the only real way of thinking is his way of thinking.

In fact in a a lot of ways "Old School" gamers might be able to be seen as the "Anti-Elitist". Respectful willing to help, willing to see beyond someone being a newbie, open and accepting to multiple view points, ect...

But regardless you'll run into that.

Or could be he was just trolling.

But you're right the response he got was the appropriate one.
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Schwendo

Schwendo

Posts : 1451
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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 16, 2010 5:30 pm

Haven,

I did a bit of background on that guy...His bio on the SWToR site said he was from England...k...But all of his conv' on his Avatar was in German. That would explain his "bad English". I am by no means bagging on the German language (I am learning via Rosetta Stone at this very moment), but he had posted a ton of stuff on other threads...most of it was double posting. The Dev's even shut off a couple of his posts due to that...I actually felt bad for the guy after my "research". Thus, I "held off" my rant on page. 55? I think of the "Old School" thread on the SWToR site...I think he's just a lonely guy who was looking for attention Sad...poor guy...

As far as the "Old School= Elitist" deal...Its an "I don't get it, so it must be bad" thing. I believe in gaming, old schoolers are the ones who have been through the gaming ringer. They have come out on the other side a bit wiser, and now use that new found intelligence to make the game and those around them...better...period.

Tell em Yoda!

Thick Skinned and Toughening Up - Page 2 44873 <"In RiG...alot of Old Schoolers........I see..."

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Thick Skinned and Toughening Up - Page 2 Rigbycrazies2
CHRIS SCHWEN / GUILD CO-LEADER- CRAZIES of KORRIBAN <-CoK-> (dark) CRAZIES of the REPUBLIC <-CoR-> (light)
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Havenae

Havenae

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Location : Mesa, AZ

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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 17, 2010 1:14 am

Schwendo wrote:
Haven,

I did a bit of background on that guy...His bio on the SWToR site said he was from England...k...But all of his conv' on his Avatar was in German. That would explain his "bad English". I am by no means bagging on the German language (I am learning via Rosetta Stone at this very moment), but he had posted a ton of stuff on other threads...most of it was double posting. The Dev's even shut off a couple of his posts due to that...I actually felt bad for the guy after my "research". Thus, I "held off" my rant on page. 55? I think of the "Old School" thread on the SWToR site...I think he's just a lonely guy who was looking for attention Sad...poor guy...

As far as the "Old School= Elitist" deal...Its an "I don't get it, so it must be bad" thing. I believe in gaming, old schoolers are the ones who have been through the gaming ringer. They have come out on the other side a bit wiser, and now use that new found intelligence to make the game and those around them...better...period.

Tell em Yoda!

Thick Skinned and Toughening Up - Page 2 44873 <"In RiG...alot of Old Schoolers........I see..."

Oh no doubt that possibly he was.

I was just saying I've ran into a few people like I described who think we're some kind of elitists because we say we're "old school".

And you're right there's definitely a difference you can see between people who have only played one other mmo or maybe a couple and those who have played several. Especially on the SWTOR forums, people that don't have much experience in MMOs (the less wise) come to irrational conclusions or illogical assumptions regarding features of the game. It boggles me how they come to such conclusions when at times there is information to suggest the exact opposite. Or very little information exists at all, so how can one make a conclusion?
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azarhal

azarhal

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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 17, 2010 2:22 am

I can see how a post-WoW player would think that an "old school" player is an elitist, that's probably because we are. It's just that we are elitist about having a good community.

I prefer to fit people into 2 categories on the SWTOR forums: The pre-WoW and the post-WoW (totally generalizing here:geek:). It's easy to know who fit in what group. Somehow, I'm glad to have started my MMO career with DAoC, despite how brief it was...

The jumping to conclusion is quite funny sometimes, though...but I'm surprised that Daniel's comment about crafter's gears being quite close to the top tier and crafter making the best stuff on the server haven't caused a flame war already. I was sure some people who have been piss off by the news, unless they are still floating on De Nile about it.


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Godric_Barbarosa

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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 17, 2010 5:22 pm

I don't know about blacklisting, but any MMO needs a robust "ignore" system. I don't like to ignore people because they may someday be useful or they may change. But if you have made it to my ignore list chances are you belong there.
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Grome
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Grome

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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 17, 2010 7:50 pm

In the end I think a temp ignore is the best solution if it goes too far.

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When You Argue With Idiots
They Drag You Down To Their Level
And Beat You With Experience
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Kai-Sun
Crackers Don't Matter
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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 17, 2010 9:03 pm

I simply warn people I'm going to put them on ignore and see how they act, which usually ends in them being on ignore.

Some stay there because they have a history of abuse, others get removed because I always take it off a few days later to see what's going on.

I use ignore as sparingly as possible, it's usually reserved for bots or trolls.
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Aurazor

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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 18, 2010 6:18 pm

Personally I'm possessed of a near-psychotic tendency to seek justice upon those who do "bad" stuff in my eyes.... letting go of insults/bad behaviour is pretty damn tricky for me if I'm honest.

In WoW if people were ganking low-levels I'd log on my main, hop on my Epic Tiger Mount and I'd happily spend the next hour of my day ganking the gankers, chasing them up and down the zones, stopping them from rezzing... every evil little trick in the book I would happily turn on griefers and cheaters alike.

Probably a waste of my own time in retrospect, but I tend to feel that whereas letting things go is important and useful in the long-run, in the short-term if there's an opportunity to stand up to the scumbags of the online-world I'll be on it like a tramp on chips Thick Skinned and Toughening Up - Page 2 882604
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Yospeck

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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 19, 2010 12:48 pm

I totally disagree with any blacklisting. What bothers you won't necessarily bother me, but if you see someone's name on a blacklist then quite simply you wont give them the time of the day, them simply being on the list is damage enough. To use a rather extreme real world example it's like when newspapers publish that someone has been accused of rape.... even when they are found to be innocent later, too late. Damage is done.

When out resource gathering I personally think it's dog eat dog, whoever is quickest to the node deserves to get it. We're all out for the same thing. If you say 'hey do you want to take it in turns picking nodes so we don't have to race each other' and they agree, then great. If not... that doesn't necessarily make them a bad person, but someone will see it as being rude and greedy and blacklist them for being unsportsmanlike. Similarly with PvP. Some people think graveyard camping in Battlegrounds is a completely valid tactic, other people will say it's grief. Killing people X number of levels below you could earn a black mark for some, others see it being part of the game.

It's a slippery slope putting people on a list with the intent to expose them as something that is, in reality, only your opinion. Now sure people can say 'yeh but I mean the people that really deserve to go on there'... sorry, but we all have a different tolerance, but you see someone on a list and you can only presume the worst.

So I'm in support of a White List as I think it promotes the kind of thing we want to do here. Kill people with kindness, don't try and ostracise them, we want people to change their negative actions, not simply cast them out and leave them to it.


On the flip side, I probably need to take my own advice. I generally just roll my eyes at trolls and never let it get me angry, when it's a deliberate troll who is doing things just to piss people off then you can spot them a mile off. However, there is a big cross-section of people that aren't out and out trolls, but they are so opinionated, blunt, hostile, or dismissive to other people thoughts and ideas in a 'I know better than you' fashion, that I sometimes think these people are worse. These are the people that I always find myself getting into debates/arguments with because I know that deep down, in the real world, that's probably exactly what they are like. Just an asshole. Not even a childish 4chan troll who gets giggles from deliberately trying to annoy people, but the people that are inherently crappy humans full of self importance and arrogance.

... I don't know if I can stop fighting these people, because then they win.. and I can't let that happen even if it means I lose in the process Smile
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Coldhart

Coldhart

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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 20, 2010 4:01 am

Quote :
... I don't know if I can stop fighting these people, because then they win.. and I can't let that happen even if it means I lose in the process

That's when you tell them "You think I'm wrong and I feel that you're wrong. Opinions are like a$$holes...everyone has one but some stink more than others"


And this goes out to everyone... I want to go over something I posted...I posted earlier about almost needing a blacklist of sorts in a community. I do feel that way to a certain degree, however, I would never actually create one. I will definitely use my in-game ignore however. And if a person griefs me or a guildmate bad enough, we will definitely be contacting one of their officers for a discussion. If they don't care, then more than likely a word of mouth to our guildmates about anyone with that guild tag. Sorry if a couple ruined it for the rest of that guild, but I play my game to have fun. I'll show respect until such a time comes that someone proves they don't deserve that respect. And even to that extent, this does not mean that my guildmates can't ever interact with that person if they choose. As I stated before, it's a "play at your own risk" deal.

Basically, I will always give respect. But I am in no way a carebear and won't put up with someone's on-going, intentional crap.
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Coldhart

Coldhart

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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 20, 2010 4:23 am

Aurazor wrote:
Personally I'm possessed of a near-psychotic tendency to seek justice upon those who do "bad" stuff in my eyes.... letting go of insults/bad behaviour is pretty damn tricky for me if I'm honest.

In WoW if people were ganking low-levels I'd log on my main, hop on my Epic Tiger Mount and I'd happily spend the next hour of my day ganking the gankers, chasing them up and down the zones, stopping them from rezzing... every evil little trick in the book I would happily turn on griefers and cheaters alike.

Probably a waste of my own time in retrospect, but I tend to feel that whereas letting things go is important and useful in the long-run, in the short-term if there's an opportunity to stand up to the scumbags of the online-world I'll be on it like a tramp on chips Thick Skinned and Toughening Up - Page 2 882604

Amen to that! If they can't take it, they shouldn't dish it

In WoW, there was a rogue player and he and his friends would always sneak in places causing crap. You could say that people would have to flag to be killed by them, and that's true enough. But they would kill all the NPC's and noone could do any quests. This main guy's name was known all across our server and ANY time his name was brought up I was always there to put my foot in his ars.

But here's the thing...we can think both ways here. You have people who will want to show the respect and maybe just try to talk to them or even do nothing at all, which is ok. Then you have people like us who will show people respect until they reach the point of no return. On forums, I tend to keep a level head and in a mature way let them know what an a$$ they are being and they need to grow up. But in-game...well that's another story alltogether. If they want to dish it out, then I have an entire guild who will come back me to give it right back if needed.

But talking about WoW is slightly different in that aspect. With the achievements and loot rewards from taking out the major cities, people would actually resort to this tactic to lure high level players out of the city. So in a way, it's not that they're really griefing players on purpose. They just want to better their chances of taking the cities.

So there are times when it's going to be a case by case scenario as well.
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Grome
Massively Subtle
Grome

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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 20, 2010 6:24 pm

Coldhart wrote:
If they want to dish it out, then I have an entire guild community who will come back me to give it right back if needed.

Fixed that for ya, you're welcome ;D

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When You Argue With Idiots
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Coldhart

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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 20, 2010 8:39 pm

lol WOOT!
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Xaxus

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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 20, 2010 8:55 pm

My ideas are treat things you love like a family. My work,friends, even guilds and games ive played with ppl I treat like a family member. Its the way I like being treated in real life,and I spread that to my son and others. Simple thing is when ppl try to penetrate a family, you stick together and protect the family, no matter what. So outside rumers, or trouble makers wont ever break a tight net of ppl... Laughing
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HDubNZ

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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 22, 2010 12:05 am

I would suggest that as a community we will set our standards and look after each other. It's about creating a culture in which our values prevail.

The more people who practice RIG on a particular server the more others coming in to troll or who for whatever reason are abusive will quickly realise that their behaviour won't fly.

Two things will happen: Those people will either leave or they will continue on until they get the reaction they wanted. Can a group take the higher ground (the path of light so to speak) and ignore the comments? That's the challenge to us. Or can we elaborate our modus ludendi to the troll/abuser and then hope for their buy-in?

That will be almost a game within the game!
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Grome
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Grome

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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 22, 2010 12:14 am

HDubNZ wrote:
That will be almost a game within the game!
I love a decent challenge jocolor

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When You Argue With Idiots
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And Beat You With Experience
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Lugaidh
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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 22, 2010 2:28 am

Xaxus wrote:
My ideas are treat things you love like a family. My work,friends, even guilds and games ive played with ppl I treat like a family member. Its the way I like being treated in real life,and I spread that to my son and others. Simple thing is when ppl try to penetrate a family, you stick together and protect the family, no matter what. So outside rumers, or trouble makers wont ever break a tight net of ppl... Laughing

Amen brotha! You have your head on straight!
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Natheless

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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 23, 2010 12:22 pm

*Wall 'o text warning*
<I aim to only speak for myself. In no way do I mean any 'we' to actually include other's unexpressed opinions. My apologies if I screw up somewhere and choose my words poorly to give the impression of anything to the contrary.>

Well, can I throw a couple of imaginary overly-dramatic scenarios towards you kind people to contemplate on regarding the questioning of blacklists since that's been mentioned a few times in this tread already?

There's a lot of talk regarding hopes for guild ships. Okay, so they come into game. Who's to own them? The guild leader (and vicariously the guild?) Enter person X. S/he starts up a guild, maybe it'll only take 10 or 20 people to get done. Person gets new/"I don't have any other friends playing yet"/un-guilded people (the type of player many of us enjoy helping the most) in to bolster the ranks. Multiple weeks go by, everyone's working towards this guild goal of getting a guild ship. Then: bang, criteria for the ship happens. *YAY!* The guild leader how has a ship, kicks everyone out, and walks away, ship in hand, leaving them with nothing. It's an assumption that such an event would be frowned upon by BW/EA/etc. There are other games where such actions would be encouraged (albeit differently formatted games with different goals from the outset). But where would you rate it if it happened to you? Presuming it isn't found to be a bannable offence, that new, cheerful, appreciative person you just helped and who then commented that they were thinking of joining this new guild... run by the same person. Would you not want to tactfully advise them to let them make their own educated decision, if you knew about what had happened in the past?

How about proven individuals who join guilds only to empty out shared portions of guild banks once they have trust gained from the unsuspecting; if only to save one of our own here who may be running a guild in order to protect our own possible guildmates? Server changes happen; but with class, level and date; the receiving guild can (?) see that same class and level came to X server right after the same date; potential warning sign without it becoming a witch hunt.

(TOTAL assumption about the mechanics of guild ships, ownership, guild/shared banks, etc)

If this whole site is dedicated to trying to be 'helpful' and foster a sense of community, shouldn't it also be a goal to know that there are individuals out there who are (comparatively) this predatory though their actions and to know of them by name?

No, I don't think we should exist to keep a running list of 17,527 black-listed names; and I find the concept of a 'whitelist' much more palatable.
We're not authorized GM's.
We're not aiming to be self-appointed game police, in the strictest sense, from what I've read from anyone else's thoughts.
We're just, if I understand the common expressed desire correctly, trying to keep our respective corners of the game clean and nurturing for those we run across who accept, or ask, for help, and to be part of the community in our own ways. But I also feel that there is still something to be said about having informative facts and sharing them without the issue sinking to the level of potential slander and a full-time job updating lists and scorecards.

node-ninjas - big deal, things re-spawn, drops happen again. Such players are often spotted early and can quickly be taken care of. But for the larger stuff that can erase months of a group's efforts at once? "It's just a game" only goes so far for many people's tolerance levels.
The modern Bad Apple is also someone with the knowledge of 'salting the earth'.

Just my 2 cents. Might not even be worth that much to be honest. Fire away.
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Grome
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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 23, 2010 9:35 pm

Well... ship happens.

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Schwendo

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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 23, 2010 9:42 pm

Wow, (no, not the game WoW)

There's some VERY intelligent conversa-schwens going on in here!!

Its amazing to me, to see this thing actually working the way it is. Ty/ Selv' you 2 have hit the veritable (no, not Variable...he is awesome, though) motherlode on this forum.

I truly appreciate the honor, honestly, humor, and respect you are all giving to each other.

I really think we're onto something here...(gratuitous outpouring of "Schwen-love")

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Thick Skinned and Toughening Up - Page 2 Rigbycrazies2
CHRIS SCHWEN / GUILD CO-LEADER- CRAZIES of KORRIBAN <-CoK-> (dark) CRAZIES of the REPUBLIC <-CoR-> (light)
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Variable
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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 23, 2010 11:36 pm

Schwendo wrote:
Wow, (no, not the game WoW)

There's some VERY intelligent conversa-schwens going on in here!!

Its amazing to me, to see this thing actually working the way it is. Ty/ Selv' you 2 have hit the veritable (no, not Variable...he is awesome, though) motherlode on this forum.

I truly appreciate the honor, honestly, humor, and respect you are all giving to each other.

I really think we're onto something here...(gratuitous outpouring of "Schwen-love")

I knew using the search function once an hour to search my own name would pay off eventually. Thanks Schwen, you're pretty Schwell yourself Razz
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Schwendo

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Guild: Crazies of Korriban

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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 24, 2010 2:20 am

Cool <thankies!

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Thick Skinned and Toughening Up - Page 2 Rigbycrazies2
CHRIS SCHWEN / GUILD CO-LEADER- CRAZIES of KORRIBAN <-CoK-> (dark) CRAZIES of the REPUBLIC <-CoR-> (light)
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Lugaidh
Incurable smartass
Lugaidh

Posts : 317
Join date : 2010-11-10
Age : 47
Location : Mansfield, Texas

Thick Skinned and Toughening Up - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 24, 2010 3:25 am

Don't believe anything Schwendo says! It's a trap!!
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Grome
Massively Subtle
Grome

Posts : 1159
Join date : 2010-11-15
Age : 30
Location : Geneva, Switzerland

Ingame Characters
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Class: Smuggler
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Thick Skinned and Toughening Up - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 24, 2010 4:07 am

Lugaidh wrote:
Don't believe anything Schwendo says! It's a trap!!
I bet now you wish you had that ackbar smiley from the official forums.

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When You Argue With Idiots
They Drag You Down To Their Level
And Beat You With Experience
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PostSubject: Re: Thick Skinned and Toughening Up   Thick Skinned and Toughening Up - Page 2 I_icon_minitime

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