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Coldhart

Coldhart

Posts : 363
Join date : 2010-11-14
Age : 46
Location : St. Louis (Illinois side)

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PostSubject: Group Mechanics   Group Mechanics I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 27, 2010 8:10 pm

We've seen and heard a little from interviews and vids on this topic.

I wonder how far the actual IG group mechanics will go. In SWG even if you were a good tank you had people pulling bosses off (I know this has a lot to do with players knowing or not knowing how to play well in that situation...meaning they may not understand that they need to lighten up a little on the dps and stop pulling the damn boss lol).

So I'm wondering how well the tanks will be able to hold mobs and how well our healers will actually be able to heal and of course, if there will be threat reduction abilities for healers and dps and threat building abilities for our tanks.

We'll be able to tell more when they release specific class trees and we can see what the abilities actually say.

Anyone have any info I missed that can inform us of anything? I do tend to miss stuff from time to time. Wink
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Stryklone

Stryklone

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PostSubject: Re: Group Mechanics   Group Mechanics I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 27, 2010 8:40 pm

I haven't seen anything on specific threat reductions/DPS aggro, but it's possbile Darth Hater might -- after E3 they were listing the powers they used in their short playtime there as best they could. Perhaps when the recent multihour play sessions have the gag order lifted there will be more detail.
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MorgonKara
Shot First
MorgonKara

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Age : 45
Location : Brooklyn

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PostSubject: Re: Group Mechanics   Group Mechanics I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 27, 2010 10:58 pm

I'd be surprised (or rather disappointed) if TOR didn't have some aggro-management abilities for the different classes. It's a terrible mechanic to force DPS classes to hold back their main role just so they don't pull aggro off the tank. Like; if my squishy Smuggler can't unload his main DPS abilities for fear of pulling aggro off the main tank, then what good is he? If my Consular healer can't heal because he's afraid of generating hate, then he can't do his job. They have to give the specialized classes some kind of threat-reduction abilities or give the tank classes Taunt abilities. imho

SWG was terrible for that, you have heroics where the DPS classes are just using auto-attack to keep from pulling the bosses off the tanks and the tank's taunt-aggro-management abilities didn't work on Boss-level NPCs. (At least that's how it was 2 years ago.)
So if the Healer accidentally got aggro, you were basically boned because there was no way to manage the hate/aggro.

When they make it all about damage then it doesn't feel like you're playing the game, it's more like you're just trying to exploit a workaround for the AI. I prefer when aggro management is an active thing rather than passive in PVE. You're actively playing the encounter instead of just crossing your fingers and hoping the healer doesn't pull the bosses.
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Darka

Darka

Posts : 365
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Class: Jedi Consular
Guild: Force Academy

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PostSubject: Re: Group Mechanics   Group Mechanics I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 27, 2010 11:17 pm

A group is only as good as the people in it, they need to be willing to try, willing to listen and willing to have fun.

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Narevek

Narevek

Posts : 18
Join date : 2010-11-11
Age : 35
Location : California

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PostSubject: Re: Group Mechanics   Group Mechanics I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 27, 2010 11:41 pm

MorgonKara wrote:
I'd be surprised (or rather disappointed) if TOR didn't have some aggro-management abilities for the different classes. It's a terrible mechanic to force DPS classes to hold back their main role just so they don't pull aggro off the tank. Like; if my squishy Smuggler can't unload his main DPS abilities for fear of pulling aggro off the main tank, then what good is he? If my Consular healer can't heal because he's afraid of generating hate, then he can't do his job. They have to give the specialized classes some kind of threat-reduction abilities or give the tank classes Taunt abilities. imho

SWG was terrible for that, you have heroics where the DPS classes are just using auto-attack to keep from pulling the bosses off the tanks and the tank's taunt-aggro-management abilities didn't work on Boss-level NPCs. (At least that's how it was 2 years ago.)
So if the Healer accidentally got aggro, you were basically boned because there was no way to manage the hate/aggro.

When they make it all about damage then it doesn't feel like you're playing the game, it's more like you're just trying to exploit a workaround for the AI. I prefer when aggro management is an active thing rather than passive in PVE. You're actively playing the encounter instead of just crossing your fingers and hoping the healer doesn't pull the bosses.

I agree (although with me it'd be my smuggler healer and consular dps, lol).

Either the squishies would need some form of threat reducing abilities/stats for aggro management, or the tanks should have decent threat generation....or a balanced mixture of both.
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HDubNZ

HDubNZ

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PostSubject: Re: Group Mechanics   Group Mechanics I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 27, 2010 11:45 pm

DPS should get threat mitigation (as should healers) and tanks should be getting decent taunt - it'll be interesting to see whether they will differentiate between the tank classes as to AoE or Single Target threat generation or whether all tank classes will have that ability.

There is no evidence to support my theory yet of course but common sense should prevail and generally does with Bioware.
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Godric_Barbarosa

Godric_Barbarosa

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PostSubject: Re: Group Mechanics   Group Mechanics I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 28, 2010 1:39 am

Am I the only one that finds Tank grabs all aggro,Dpsers wail away, and healers continuously heal, rinse and repeat boring to tears? Give me a figbt where people have to think and stratagize, where people pull aggro and the tank has to work to get it back. The fights that are the most fun to me are the messy ones, not the clean ones.
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azarhal

azarhal

Posts : 866
Join date : 2010-11-10
Age : 36
Location : Frosty Canada

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Class: Smuggler
Guild: Maybe Serenity

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PostSubject: Re: Group Mechanics   Group Mechanics I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 28, 2010 1:48 am

Godric_Barbarosa wrote:
Am I the only one that finds Tank grabs all aggro,Dpsers wail away, and healers continuously heal, rinse and repeat boring to tears?

I share your pain. Sad

I love chaos.

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Yunie

Yunie

Posts : 24
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Location : Portugal

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PostSubject: Re: Group Mechanics   Group Mechanics I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 28, 2010 1:58 am

Godric_Barbarosa wrote:
Am I the only one that finds Tank grabs all aggro,Dpsers wail away, and healers continuously heal, rinse and repeat boring to tears? Give me a figbt where people have to think and stratagize, where people pull aggro and the tank has to work to get it back. The fights that are the most fun to me are the messy ones, not the clean ones.

As long as someone else does it first, people will will never truly "read" and "strategize"... they will ask someone else or read a guide. Which makes me wish all fights had a random factor on them.
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Coldhart

Coldhart

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Age : 46
Location : St. Louis (Illinois side)

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PostSubject: Re: Group Mechanics   Group Mechanics I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 28, 2010 2:18 am

Well I like the points made above...as far as aggro management. I'm all for messy and trying to get it figured out, but if you're doing white damage and the boss comes and one-shots you...that suxors and there needs to be some kind of balance.
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Godric_Barbarosa

Godric_Barbarosa

Posts : 293
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PostSubject: Re: Group Mechanics   Group Mechanics I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 28, 2010 3:01 am

Yunie wrote:
As long as someone else does it first, people will will never truly "read" and "strategize"... they will ask someone else or read a guide. Which makes me wish all fights had a random factor on them.

Ugh I hate "reading" for raids. Note to any guild that may accept me- do not expect me to read how to run a dungeon before the first time I run it. I want to experience the content not read about the content. Will this disqualify me from some guilds? None that I care to be a part of.

And I agree that bosses shouldn't one-shot squishies and I think Bioware said as much as well.
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Grome
Massively Subtle
Grome

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PostSubject: Re: Group Mechanics   Group Mechanics I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 28, 2010 3:09 am

You two are talking about different kinds of "reading". I agree with godric. While I read the strategies I never really liked reading them and would have more fun trying and exploring it myself.

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Kai-Sun
Crackers Don't Matter
Kai-Sun

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Age : 37
Location : Virginia, USA

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PostSubject: Re: Group Mechanics   Group Mechanics I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 28, 2010 3:20 am

I really hate to make ya'lls life boring...

But when I'm tanking, you aren't going to have aggro, I don't care how bloody hard it is. You. Will. Not. Get. Hit because you have direct aggro. Call it arrogance all you want, but I love my job and I'm dead serious about not seeing my group die because I cannot control a fight.

/mwuahaha.

Can't really know how difficult it'll be yet, hope it's challenging without being too punishing.

As for reading about raids. I general do that so my guild doesn't have to if they don't want. Or an officer does, or no one does and we wing it for fun. Most the people I raid with adapt quickly to mechanics, so I guess I'm rather lucky really.
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Narevek

Narevek

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Age : 35
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PostSubject: Re: Group Mechanics   Group Mechanics I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 28, 2010 5:01 am

Kai-Sun wrote:
But when I'm tanking, you aren't going to have aggro, I don't care how bloody hard it is. You. Will. Not. Get. Hit because you have direct aggro. Call it arrogance all you want, but I love my job and I'm dead serious about not seeing my group die because I cannot control a fight.

Haha, that's been my tanking philosophy before too.

Of course, I also enjoy a messy fight..and I've been known to make the tank work for aggro when I'm on dps (actually, there are times when as a dps i make it my one and only goal to steal the tank's aggro and keep it, lol). when the messy fight turns into a pointless wipe, however, it's always the tank's or the healer's fault....even if the dps was the one who caused it. DPS can start the fights and/or make em as messy as they want imho...as long as there's no scapegoating if it ends badly. Wink
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Fett_Fan27

Fett_Fan27

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Age : 26
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PostSubject: Re: Group Mechanics   Group Mechanics I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 28, 2010 5:09 am

I wonder how big raid groups are going to be.

If they have raids, but I'm assuming they will.
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Zepour



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PostSubject: Re: Group Mechanics   Group Mechanics I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 28, 2010 12:24 pm

Cloud Mind
Level 28
Force: 60
Instant
Cooldown: 1min
Cloud the minds of your enemies, instantly lowering your threat by a moderate amount.
Sith Inquisitor ability.

(Taken from www.swtor-station.com.)
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azarhal

azarhal

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Join date : 2010-11-10
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Character Name: Gloriana
Class: Smuggler
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PostSubject: Re: Group Mechanics   Group Mechanics I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 28, 2010 1:57 pm

Zepour wrote:
Cloud Mind
Level 28
Force: 60
Instant
Cooldown: 1min
Cloud the minds of your enemies, instantly lowering your threat by a moderate amount.
Sith Inquisitor ability.

(Taken from www.swtor-station.com.)

Nice catch. I looked at them really fast and I didn't see that one. sunny

My current belief is that TOR threat system will be extremely similar to Dragon Age: Origins. Both game have the same lead designer and the ability description is similar as well. People can read how the DA:O system work here.

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Grome
Massively Subtle
Grome

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PostSubject: Re: Group Mechanics   Group Mechanics I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 28, 2010 3:52 pm

azarhal wrote:
My current belief is that TOR threat system will be extremely similar to Dragon Age: Origins. Both game have the same lead designer and the ability description is similar as well. People can read how the DA:O system work here.
I don't know. Maybe similar but they will certainly not copy paste it. There's gotta be some changes. Ranged tanks in TOR e.g. will require some.

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azarhal

azarhal

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PostSubject: Re: Group Mechanics   Group Mechanics I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 28, 2010 4:02 pm

Grome wrote:
I don't know. Maybe similar but they will certainly not copy paste it. There's gotta be some changes. Ranged tanks in TOR e.g. will require some.

Not that much really. Ranged tank got heavy armor (highest armor threat), they got big weapon (highest weapon threat) and they just need to get first hit on the boss to generate maximal initial threat. Add abilities that generate a lots of threat and Voilà: Ranged Tanks. Of course, if you put a melee tank in front of them, they will probably feel useless. rabbit

Anyway, I don't really care about that, I prefer CC over meatshield.





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Grome
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Grome

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PostSubject: Re: Group Mechanics   Group Mechanics I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 28, 2010 4:06 pm

Yeah, you are right, doesn't need much change but they will probably rework distance-based threat to be honest. And they will maybe have to consider cover as well. So yes, similar Smile

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azarhal

azarhal

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PostSubject: Re: Group Mechanics   Group Mechanics I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 28, 2010 4:09 pm

cover +> -X to threat level... Rogue had something similar in DA:O. I expect stealth to clear the "entry" as well.

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Grome
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Grome

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PostSubject: Re: Group Mechanics   Group Mechanics I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 28, 2010 4:18 pm

azarhal wrote:
cover +> -X to threat level... Rogue had something similar in DA:O. I expect stealth to clear the "entry" as well.
Smuggler might get more out of it, and stealth is probably indeed gonna clear threat (you can't hate what you don't see).

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Coldhart

Coldhart

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PostSubject: Re: Group Mechanics   Group Mechanics I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 28, 2010 6:55 pm

Zepour wrote:
Cloud Mind
Level 28
Force: 60
Instant
Cooldown: 1min
Cloud the minds of your enemies, instantly lowering your threat by a moderate amount.
Sith Inquisitor ability.

(Taken from www.swtor-station.com.)

Awesome! Thank you
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Grome
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Grome

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PostSubject: Re: Group Mechanics   Group Mechanics I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 28, 2010 8:23 pm

Found this one for the smuggler... It's kinda funny lol


Surrender (Rank 1) - Requires Level 24
Instant
Cooldown: 3 minutes
The Smuggler pretends to surrender, thereby lowering all aggro.

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azarhal

azarhal

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PostSubject: Re: Group Mechanics   Group Mechanics I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 28, 2010 8:44 pm

Personally, I just love the fact that the Smuggler's charm ability make team members better healers and boost all the companions at the same time, because it increase the Presence stat. Laughing

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