Possible Forum Layout?

The Welcome, General, Aid & Assistance, and Rigger's forums written up. I've also finished the RP & Lore and Game Discussion forums. (Note, these include their respective sub-forums.) I'll begin a Selven Profanity Filter write-up later today.

Let me read up a bit and we'll get this going again. Time to grab a broom,... and play air guitar on it.

Good to see you back, Grome!

I've tweaked the Guild Forum descriptions as best I could. By all means toss out any comments when you've cleared the cobwebs with that Air Guitar!

All read up!

Awesome job Al! (I'm thinking "Al" sounds kinda gangster so maybe I'll call you that)

For the time being this is pretty much perfect and we'll have to wait for some more updates or even the actual game to go more into detail in some forums.

I noticed three things:

- Naming inconsistency in head RP forum between page 1 and 8, but I suppose page 8 is where we are at right now (and I think it's very good). This is actually not very important, might just update it on page 1 or delete it completely if it doesn't reflect the current state (would then just redirect to page 8.)

- Suggestion: Subforums for the Aid&Assistance (I want to call it A&A from now on ): As the forum is, as I understand it, for discussion of community help etc as well as other things such as, I don't know, help with getting the game working, or ventrilo, or any other problems one might have, of course somehow game-related, it might be wise to split it up in two sub forums?

- Theorycrafting: I saw you had some thinking about a Theorycrafting forum. I'm not sure this is necessary. I was thinking this might take place in the Class forums. But it will maybe make more sense to put it apart and somewhere else (maybe another subforum in the head class forums, although it also does make sense to split it class-wise and I think class sub-subforums in the theorycrafting subforum might make it a little packed).
In the end I think it would better fit in the specific class subforums but then again there might be "general" theorycrafting, class-unrelated so a subforum in the head class forums might be the best way to go?


Just to recapture the thing and see what will still need to be done (doesn't mean now):

- Trade forum setup. How will it work, how to post, etc (we could do this already)

- Keep track of where RIG is headed (as in, how many servers, etc) - I suppose in the Welcome or the Riggers forum; or both (this is to be done progressively)

- Server events forum functioning. Mostly how much and what will go in the form post redirecting to the discussed, elaborated post in the subforums (this, I think, could be left a little open until launch, when we will see what is truly needed - until then afaiac a simple draft form will do, nothing involving hours of thinking through really for now)

- Other than that, just keep the whole thing lined up with what we know about the game, as with further information we will know better where and how to put (update) things.


If there is anything else I have missed please let me know but this should be all we have to look at for the moment. I think this is a very good looking layout and there is not much we should change at this time.

Welcome back Gromey!! Been super-duper busy lately. For some reasonm every bar and nightclub in St.Louis is calling baout gigs (and thats a GOOD thing). hehe.

Take care bro!

Grome wrote:

All read up!

...

I noticed three things:

- Naming inconsistency in head RP forum between page 1 and 8, but I suppose page 8 is where we are at right now (and I think it's very good). This is actually not very important, might just update it on page 1 or delete it completely if it doesn't reflect the current state (would then just redirect to page 8.)

- Suggestion: Subforums for the Aid&Assistance (I want to call it A&A from now on ): As the forum is, as I understand it, for discussion of community help etc as well as other things such as, I don't know, help with getting the game working, or ventrilo, or any other problems one might have, of course somehow game-related, it might be wise to split it up in two sub forums?

- Theorycrafting: I saw you had some thinking about a Theorycrafting forum. I'm not sure this is necessary. I was thinking this might take place in the Class forums. But it will maybe make more sense to put it apart and somewhere else (maybe another subforum in the head class forums, although it also does make sense to split it class-wise and I think class sub-subforums in the theorycrafting subforum might make it a little packed).
In the end I think it would better fit in the specific class subforums but then again there might be "general" theorycrafting, class-unrelated so a subforum in the head class forums might be the best way to go?


Just to recapture the thing and see what will still need to be done (doesn't mean now):

...

Thank you very much for all your help with this, Grome! You've been quite invaluable.

I think I will take your suggestion and cut the outline out of the original post and provide a link to page 8.

A&A Forum: How much use is there for an in-game help forum? To my mind I think most or all in-game aid will be taken care of in other forums. Need help with playing your class? There's a class forum for that. Need help with mods and addons? There's a forum for that. I think I might actually specify this forum for out of game help, and redirect any in-game help that doesn't fit elsewhere to the general forums. Though maybe I should specify flashpoint guides go into the general forum, or create their own forum.

The only reason I was going to create a separate theorycrafting forum was so that one link could be provided as a focused go-to place for theorycrafting. The idea being to prevent theorycrafting from becoming associated with "Elitist Jerks" as it did in WoW. I think that that was a large part of how the raiding culture got so FUBARed in WoW. Group activities, especially large group activities are inherently cooperative. IMHO elitism and exclusion-ism are unnatural in cooperative gaming. All of that said, I think just providing a link to RiG class forums might be sufficient as long as we keep some clearly demarcated stickies for theorycrafters to find. What would be lost would be the opportunity to re-shape opinions by carefully naming the sub-forum. Erg. Can't make up my own >beep< mind.

Aldemarran wrote:

Thank you very much for all your help with this, Grome! You've been quite invaluable.

I think I will take your suggestion and cut the outline out of the original post and provide a link to page 8.

A&A Forum: How much use is there for an in-game help forum? To my mind I think most or all in-game aid will be taken care of in other forums. Need help with playing your class? There's a class forum for that. Need help with mods and addons? There's a forum for that. I think I might actually specify this forum for out of game help, and redirect any in-game help that doesn't fit elsewhere to the general forums. Though maybe I should specify flashpoint guides go into the general forum, or create their own forum.

The only reason I was going to create a separate theorycrafting forum was so that one link could be provided as a focused go-to place for theorycrafting. The idea being to prevent theorycrafting from becoming associated with "Elitist Jerks" as it did in WoW. I think that that was a large part of how the raiding culture got so FUBARed in WoW. Group activities, especially large group activities are inherently cooperative. IMHO elitism and exclusion-ism are unnatural in cooperative gaming. All of that said, I think just providing a link to RiG class forums might be sufficient as long as we keep some clearly demarcated stickies for theorycrafters to find. What would be lost would be the opportunity to re-shape opinions by carefully naming the sub-forum. Erg. Can't make up my own >beep< mind.

To be honest, this all wouldn't have been possible without you. Great job!
The bottom line however is that this is a collective effort!

A&A Forum: Yes, let's then just make this the out of game help forum, while everything else should seamlessly fit in somewhere else.
Flashpoint guides for instance should just go into the PvE forum, I'd say.

Alright, as for theorycrafting, or whatever it should then be called, I think it deserves a very own forum in the class subforum (i.e. on the same level as the smuggler forum). Without any class related theorycrafting subforums at first though? If there is too much theorycrafting and it gets complicated that can always be arranged, I just think it would seem too much for the beginning.
The naming can be an opportunity to liberate it from its "elitist" burden. From what I can remember reading "character optimization" sounded nice and neutral. However it might be good to keep the suggestions coming? I'll give it some thought myself.

Grome wrote:

...
A&A Forum: Yes, let's then just make this the out of game help forum, while everything else should seamlessly fit in somewhere else.
Flashpoint guides for instance should just go into the PvE forum, I'd say.

Done and done.

Grome wrote:

...
Alright, as for theorycrafting, or whatever it should then be called, I think it deserves a very own forum in the class subforum (i.e. on the same level as the smuggler forum). Without any class related theorycrafting subforums at first though? If there is too much theorycrafting and it gets complicated that can always be arranged, I just think it would seem too much for the beginning.
The naming can be an opportunity to liberate it from its "elitist" burden. From what I can remember reading "character optimization" sounded nice and neutral. However it might be good to keep the suggestions coming? I'll give it some thought myself.

There will be many posts. The organization of the thread can be handled by having a sticky for each class with someone updating the primary post with current recommendations and theories. Lots of people will be needed to maintain this. This will definitely have to be a "work in progress" sort of thing that we won't really be able to get started on until after game launch. The degree to which this will advance MAY be affected by whether or not Bioware allows/provide in-game damage/healing meters. Argh, my brain just exploded. Clean up, page 11!!!

And as for naming, Mr. Barbarosa had the best suggestion so far with either "Character Optimization" or "Statistical Character Optimization". The debate being between brevity and specificity. I have a gut feeling that once the PC Police are in it will need to be the more specific option, but maybe we can just wait and let them complain if they really want it changed.

Stickies are a very good solution. Keep the important stuff right at the top and dump what you don't need anymore, as it's a moving business.

We'll need people to keep it up to date, true. Maybe a devoted player for each class or something like this. Depending on how much work there is to be done a single moderator might be enough at first (strictly speaking no one is needed at this point, as there won't be any meaningful theorycrafting going on until launch, and then we'll see anyway).

9 Stickies should do (I figure one for general TC).

As for naming I'd vote for the brief "Character Optimization", as there might also be discussion about things like "spell-rotation" or builds, which is not just statistical optimization but can sometimes be a thing of opinion. Therefore this one might sum it up better. Sort of a "how to play your role (more) effectively" forum, it's not all math.

Where are we on this?

I have a new thought as to where to place the CO forum (CO = char optimization).
We make CO a very own forum in the Game Discussion Forums (alongside Class Discussion etc). It gets a subforum for each class while general CO discussion as well as CO concerning more than one class finds its place in the actual CO forum.

I think it would be too messy to fit it into the class forums. This is just easier and people who don't want to bother with it don't need to, while people who come for this find it easier. Might as well take it this far while we are at it.

Also, about the name, I'm still on "Character Optimization". Neutral, not too long, still some openness in the name (addition of "statistical" would take it to much into the "it's math" section. while there is lots of math, that is not all there is to it).

I'm going with "Character Optimization" until the PC Police make me change it.

The thing for me is that we need to find people who are both willing and able to do this. And we'll need about 8 people assuming that Republic and Empire have true mirror classes. Creating these forums is a two-edged sword. It would inspire people to do it, but if left undone long enough people wouldn't take it seriously. Either way its not needed until after launch day.

As for the rest of the architecture, I'm waiting for Selven to do it or to empower me to do it. As far as I'm concerned it is "good enough" and can be tweaked later if desired.

I don't think it's up to us to see that the CO forum gets content. There should be stickies as in "these are the discussions/calculations that matter right now" and that's not a lot of work.

Anything beyond that we should let work out on its own.

I agree that the general structure looks very convincing now and I think we got it right - and it's not a big deal to change things later on.

Where do you stand concerning this idea to make CO an own forum alongside class, crafting, ui, etc?


One last thing we might take a look at is if the order the forums are put in is satisfactory (well, doesn't make really that much of a difference but I like to put my head into the details a lot...).

First layer looks like this for now:

- Welcome, Read here first
- Game Discussion
- Server Events
- Guilds
- RP & Lore
- General
- Trade
- Aid & Assistance
- Rigger's

Maybe move up Trade, the rest seems in place to me. I'd put Trade after Server Events.

Regarding the CO forum(s) Architecture:
Still somewhat split in my own mind on this subject. You seem pretty decided so I'll just take that as a deciding vote unless I come up with something better before this gets implemented.

QUESTION: To draw people into its use even if they are outsiders should this be up in the top level forum? The objective (in my mind anyway) is to make this such a quality reference that even the elitists come here for knowledge. I think this needs to be an overwhelming focal point if we are to change the WoW overrun culture of "Elitist Jerks".

Regarding Our Role in the CO Forums:
Our job will be to find and implement competent moderators & calculators to control keeping primary resources stickied. Note that what makes a good moderator and what makes a good calculator are very different qualities and may require separate placement.

If this becomes as big as I hope we'll need good calculators to "smelt out the dross". There will be a LOT of theory-crafters. We'll need to find someone who can understand and impose discipline on what makes it to the top, what gets marked as "the most effective proven theory".

We'll also need PATIENT moderator(s) to let people blather, calm the over-sensitive, curtail the "elitists", and have the wisdom to know the difference. Let me say that again. We'll need MOTHER LOVING (<---Selven Profanity Filter Activated) PATIENT moderators. This job will be thankless and painful.

Regarding Forum Order:
I'm thinking of order in terms of two elements: Access and Continuing Use. Those forums with restricted access get pushed lower. Those forums which a user would use once or twice then abandon get pushed lower. Those forums with the most active users get pushed to the top. One Exception: the welcome forum MUST be at the top since it is the "new user orientation" thread.

Something I suppose that should be discussed whether to keep the RP forums wide open or make them more like the proposal for the Trade Forum with minimal requirements to obtain access. I'll start a separate thread on that topic in a few minutes.

For now, here's what I come up with:

1. Welcome, Read here first
   
2. Game Discussion
   
3. Server Events
   
4. Trade
   
5. RP & Lore
   
6. Guilds
   
7. General
   
8. Aid & Assistance
   
9. Rigger's

CO:
I'm suggesting what makes sense to me. I'm open to other thoughts very much. Top level is another good idea (if we get this facade website we've been talking about down in the new website thread a CO link could be put separately, redirecting to the CO forum).

I understand what you are aiming for. I'd certainly like for this to become a main point of interest and a sort of hub for theorycrafters.

However we have to take a realistic look at this. Getting there can cost a lot of work and commitment. Most of all however you really need the people.
You'd need some decent theorycrafting going on already to attract the specific crowd, until at some point it's just gonna work itself out and when it attracts more theorycrafters, this again attracts more theorycrafters.

And that's the point. Unless we already have the people to orchestrate this forum (which means in this case, get the stone rolling, start discussions, calculations, and stuff) come launch, I don't see how we could manage to become a sort of TC "authority" if you will. (unless there is some way to get TCers on here I haven't thought of? "free cookies")

People come here for the notion of respect first of all and we'll have to hope there are some good TCers among them to even get it up to such heights. How else would you start it? I don't see how you could get good TCers here just for that. We'll have to work with what we have at the beginning.

Therefore I see two possible outcomes.
1. We have the people and it has the potential to get "meaningful" (and big).
2. Otherwise it will just be a "local" TC discussion area. For people in the community that want to know whether they should use item A or B e.g..

Either way, it will find its use (one more busy, the other one less). I would like to see us take it to 1. but whether we're able to do that we'll only know months from now when release is close. At this point it's very difficult to say how many players this community is even gonna count (plus, there's the whole server stuff to figure out still - though CO would of course be of use for all and not server-related).

In any case, preparing for it and already providing an extensive CO forum can only help and hopefully send the message that this forum is going to care about TC.
This gets me to the conclusion that if we want a chance at reaching 1. we should put CO in the top layer.

Moderation:
Back in the days, I spent a lot of time reading the EJ forums (well, mostly the theorycrafting stuff) and it wasn't really that elitist to be honest. The elitist behavior everyone seems to despise did not come from there. It's gonna be even less of a problem here.

I don't see things happening like "hey, should I take this blaster or that one for my build?" - "dude, you suck, they are both crap, just go kill yourself". Usually the people who actually do the thinking are not the jerks, at least from my experience. It's the guys that are for whatever reason really well equipped and need an ego boost. And that's just really a whole different group. I feel there has always been this misunderstanding that one and the other are one and the same group but that is entirely wrong. They overlap sometimes for sure but there's generally different attitudes.

There will still need to be moderation but I wouldn't expect there to be constant conflict, unless we attract huge crowds. Generally this forum is gonna feel like something more personal, less anonymus so you're gonna see less of that "I don't give a rat's ass" behavior you sometimes see on the official forums.


Forum order:
First I was thinking of a split of "ingame" (Game discussion, Server Events, Trade, Guilds) and "out of game" (RP/Lore, General, A&A, Rigger's) forums, with Welcome still at the top, then the ingame ones, then the outgame ones.

Whatcha think Al? (or whoever else is reading this )

Thinking is hard.

Although, I agree that elitists don't usually "hang" in theorycrafting area and that it might not become a popular side of the community forum either. Depending of the crowd attracted, we have a variety of people already so it's hard to see what exactly it will become (crowd tend to uniformize themselves).

And I agree with your forum layout: Welcome always at the top, than main subject of the forum, then adjacent subjects and finally out of context...

Do you consider the Trade Forum to be in-game or out-of-game?

Right, in the end it's probably not all black and white, so maybe it is best to go from most community related to least community related. But it should somehow reflect an order of usage.

(I considered Trade an ingame forum, as in game related.)

But let's go with that first assumption...

Welcome
Server Events
Guilds
Trade
General Game Discussion
RP/Lore
General Discussion
Assistance
Rigger's


I went: community relatedness, then game relatedness, with exceptions.

I'm not very certain where to put the Rigger's forum, but the bottom seems alright. I don't think it will get THAT much attention once the game is out. That is also why the Assistance forum is down there. It just won't get as much attention.

What do you think about CO then? I think we should make it its own head forum if we want to give it a chance at unfolding perfectly. I'd put it below General Game Discussion in that case.

Let me run something past you here.

There are at least two, maybe three, forums that have zero use pre-launch day. They are Trade, Character Optimization, and maybe Server Events. This fact has been nagging at the back of my head. In at least the case of the Trade Forum I could see game mechanics that might alter RiG interest levels or even mechanisms. (What if they made it possible to declare a discount on the auction for guildie's bids?)

I don't see any of these forums being "turned on" before launch day. There's a real possibility that the CO forum wouldn't be turned on until after the first Rigger hit level cap. Optimizations are designed for level cap, at least within the context we're discussing for them.

Perhaps we should look at this as a preliminary development, then at a more appropriate time refine and deliver the product or even go to the community with a vote on them. As for current status on these...

Trade Forum: I think we've got a great design thread going already and this will just need to be implemented on launch day.

Server Events: I'm honestly not happy with this. I really want to do some more work on the Summary Form at a minimum. Unfortunately I've hit a bit of a mental block on this problem. This may even change significantly based on your conversation with Arzon..

Character Optimization: I need to write both descriptions and guidelines for these. There will need to be a set of guidelines for users and an additional set for moderators and yet a third set for "theory masters". (Theory Master is someone who leads the work of choosing and writing up "the most optimized build".) I do agree with your placement in the header forum, Grome.

As for the top level forum order, I agree intellectually. I'm not certain why, but I struggle getting comfortable with the idea of General Game Discussion being so low. Maybe it has to do with the current phase of the game and me not thinking about what the forums will be like after launch day.

Personally, I would switch Guilds and General Game Discussions. Also, with Assistance so low, we might end-up with "assistance" request in General Game Discussion.

Welcome
Server Events

General Game Discussion
Guilds

Assistance
RP/Lore
Trade

General Discussion
Rigger's

Also, Server Events have one use before pre-launch: post the "launch week" event(s).

From the very start I looked at this to be a launch layout and nothing temporary. I don't see why we would need any temporary layout plans. In my opinion we should concentrate on what will be needed at launch.

We don't even know yet when this layout is gonna be implemented. It is then that we will have to decide what forums we want to keep hidden for a while longer, not now.


I agree with the "feeling" about General Game Discussion.

Az, two things:
Personally, that order looks sort of disordered to me. Can't really coin it, but for one thing I would definitely put Trade above RP and Assistance.
Assistance does not need to be high in my opinion and why would people post assistance requests in the game discussion forums? Assistance = more like "out of game" assistance, as in technical problems or similar.
That's why Assistance is kind of OT. Or what was on your mind regarding Assistance?

Here's what I'm suggesting now:

Welcome
General Game Disc
Server Events
Guilds
Trade
Assistance
RP/Lore
General Disc
Rigger's

This is what "feels right" for me. What do you think?

Well, I may let you two come along to play with the new forums and its layout once we have the new boards if thats ok? I think we just get that layout looking and feeling right ready for launch?

I think you guys have some neat ideas for it, so I am more than happy to let you guys toy around with it and get it to what you feel is right.

Ty,
I'd certainly appreciate it! I'm obviously involved in this layout a bit and it would help to know how it all works behind the scenes


Now onto this...

Trade Forum:

A few details to settle maybe but otherwise we got that under control, I'm gonna kick it back up later to see what's missing.


Server Events:

Yes, we'll need to give it some thought what kind of form we want to have. We might have to check with Arz first to see what is possible but I don't think the possibilities of the website are gonna restrict our ideas so we should probably just go ahead and create a new thread for this discussion.


Char Optimization:

Descriptions and Guidelines: What kind of descriptions are you talking about? And also what guidelines for different user groups?
Here's what I disagree slightly on: I don't think we need to assign specific mods and "theory masters" to these forums from the very start.

Various people will post ideas and have discussions. The only tasks I deem necessary here is for someone to at some point sort through the stuff (ideally someone who is involved) and post a sticky with links to the important threads and also the "confirmed" theorycrafting that is useful, or otherwise just sticky the threads that are giving this information.

Having someone write down that stuff all over again in a mannerly fashion like you suggest is probably a good idea too. Some information might not have been discussed on the forums, or might just be too chaotic to sticky. It's a good idea to have someone do that work (someone interested in the task) but we (or that person) will have to find the right way between those two methods. I think writing everything down is not a good idea especially as there are always a lot of ongoing theories as well and you'll want to have these brought to attention as well, as they can be important.

Bottom line is, have a couple of "basic" things summarized in an orderly fashion, but also sticky important ongoing discussions (that is part of theorycrafting, making theories - after all it's in the name). Another thing that's good to have is a Q&A sticky, where people can post "trivial" questions à la "what attribute is better for this build" and get answers, this all without filling the forums with tons of very own threads with just a couple of answers each.